EP 13: Marketing Mayhem & Post Truth Branding ft. Dr. Kushal Sanghvi

remove this footage because you can't be seen as wanting to promote something. I simply do on that god. I just feel he's just so magical. There's so much mystery and still the fact is he's so still so playful. He's just so easy for anyone to just look at him and fall in love. >> That's very cool. In fact, you you've been a sculptor as well. So there's a lot of creativity. >> It's about living that moment and being in those few hours where you are. >> Is that one of the focal points which led you to get into media and advertising? I got into media I think by

chance. Maybe you'll be around with good-looking people. You don't need to try very hard to get a date. You'll get it pretty flippantly as well. >> How difficult or easy was it to manage and kind of consolidate a lot of these group businesses to come to singular strategies >> space was given to us. We really wrote our own digital book for alliance. >> What the real outcomes look like at that point >> leading free mantle for India. Literally there were moments from frustration from headquarters saying let it be. Let's

just do just mobile and let the landline not happen because this is government. You can't shake them. >> There are a lot of new technologies that are coming including AI. >> If you're not going to be able to connect, if you're not going to get loose flesh, you've not done it and no AI in the room can give you any loose flesh. So with due respect to all the tech and all the AI, if you're not going to have hi in life, advertising will lose its sheet. >> What's the next big thing that we'll see in market?

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and retailers recover hidden dollars from overp payments and leakages. Docs Now's intelligent platform empowers businesses of all sizes to rapidly collect, manage, govern, and collaborate on the data front. Transforming your documents and making sure there's an impact on the business bottom line all in a secure and a single environment. Hello everyone, welcome to yet another amazing episode of the innovators and disruptors podcast. I'm in Bombay having this conversation with a very very very unique and a special person, a special guest today. Uh today's episode is going

to cover a lot of topics. We're going to talk about media. We're going to talk about branding. We're going to talk about advertising. And most importantly, we're talking about digital transformation story of India. And his name is synonymous to the digital transformation story of the country. And he has done a lot of different things. He's been an entrepreneur. He's been an investor. He's been a media veteran, advertising veteran, branding, digital transformation. And you see it and he's there. So it's going to be these conversations are going to be revolving

around boardroom insights to brush strokes because he has done a lot of that as well. He's very very creative and I'm so happy to welcome Dr. Kushel Sangi here today with me on the show. Thank you so much sir for coming in. >> It's completely my pleasure and super happy to host you in this lovely city of Bombay which I call Bombay all the time. I don't call Mumbai for some strange reason but I just it's Bombay it's it's got this whole emotion thing. Mumbai seems a little bit more different to different people but I'm going to keep it to Bombay.

>> Oh that's fantastic. In fact we have cutting chai as well to give Bombay the flavor of Bombay. I mean for me to at least soak in that while I'm here. So uh I'm going to sip on this while we have this conversation. >> Sure. Absolutely. >> Uh but you you have come from South Bombay. So before I talk to you a lot more about a lot of stuff around your journey and of of impact creation of being the leader that you are today uh very intriguing thought that came into my mind right I have friends who are who are residents of South Bombay so as they

would like to fondly call it. >> Sure. >> Uh what is your perspective on it? You know how how different is so from the rest of Bombay? Well, I think I know for a fact that there going to be a lot of people seeing this, but I can still tell you for a fact that I think uh clearly the city has grown. It's sort of I think continue to grow in terms of boundaries for sure. But given that we've been born up in that particular space, I think abai your entire >> conditioning or wiring has been towards South Bombay.

>> So your closest sort of friends are all around there. The closest places that you sort of went around eating, you know, your girlfriends were from there. Everything was around that space. It's a space which is close to your heart. So today if you ask me honestly if you want to sort of party out on a weekend for example and you get a call to say hey you what come to Pay visa BBSB in South Bombay you're going to definitely think and ponder twice whether you want to go to PA all the way and other option is to sort of be in a place which is comfortable for you.

>> Right. Makes a lot of sense. I I've visited quite a few places in South Bombay and in fact I've uh enjoyed uh spending time there. So thank you so much for sharing that perspective. Now s you've done so much over your career right and I'm sure uh you continue to you know keep keep doing a lot more uh and when I say a lot more I'm talking about a lot of impact creation that you've already done and I'm sure there's a lot more coming your way as well or uh so before we get deeper into some of the impact stuff I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your upbringing where

were you born what were some key pivotal moments in your early days childhood that you you know brought in some very interesting perspectives in terms of your behavior set in terms of your values that are still closer to heart and that have helped you shape into a leader that you become today. I am born and brought up from Bombay, Tabway. While of course my roots are from Gujarat sort of I'm a Gujarati by sort of in terms of where you know my language is concerned in terms of what I would speak often as a mother tongue at home but uh I have a older sibling uh

sister and for me I think uh the memories that I always have and what I get told by in my growing years because I think on my paternal side I'm the only child >> only son >> and uh I think for some time I think for a while I think uh my Mom and dad wasn't too sure they wanted to have a second child. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And I think it was just pure coincidence or call it luck or whatever as well that I just came around. >> So it wasn't something which was really

sort of superbly sort of planned. But though when I do ask sometimes my mom or my dad, my mom says yes, I definitely want the child. My dad doesn't really answer that too well. He just says that it happened and but my mom said no, I really wanted to have a second one. So at least the older one gets company for sure as well and we were delighted to have you as well. So that's the story I get to hear as well. >> So definitely wanted. >> Yes. So definitely wanted. Uh but I think what I think fascinates me particularly is I think and I think when

I try and look at some of these sort of I think closely is I was born on a Sunday >> and uh then I get into the little detailing of it dice sort of I think uh while of course the gap between me and my sister is about four and a half five years and of course while I sort of get come around as well I'm told that I think for many years as a tradition my parents went to Siddak Temple on a Sunday. >> Yeah. and they sort of made that a habit and they would typically go in the afternoons when you know sort of it

wasn't too crowded like being in the evening or wasn't like in the morning as well and it was just the same time that I was born >> so I think uh in that process I think when I've been hearing those things I think that's the god that I closely uh you know easily just relate to so in my worst times that's the first name which comes to me and uh I am a very spiritual person I'm also sort of extremely god-loving and godfearing both as well. >> And uh I simply do on that god. I just feel he's just so magical. There's so much mystery and still the fact is he's

so still so playful. He's just so easy for anyone to just look at him and fall in love. M >> so I think that's what I sort of I think can remember of my childhood memories in terms of the fact that yes born in a Gujarati family but pretty much born and brought up raised in Bombay itself and my schooling was pretty close to home so I could easily just walk up into and get to school as well. Some of my closest friends are from school as well. uh I chose to sort of I think uh want to sort of do I think commerce and I sort of decided that but I think there was also

I think a bit of a sort of a creative streak within me. >> Uh so for which I was also dabbling alongside to think whether I would also want to perhaps look at not being in commerce but I said maybe I could sort of have some space where I could design buildings and that as well. which is when I actually decided that uh I'll do a proper formal education in design, architecture, interior design. I even did that for a full-fledged and I also have a degree in that space. >> Oh, is it? Okay. Wow. >> Yeah. But it's just that I didn't sort

of I think take it on really. But to be honest, when you know when you're sitting in a plane sometimes and you finished emails and some stuff and you're not looking at any good piece of content or some stuff, I'll just doodle. >> And the doodling won't only happen in a plane. It'll happen any place, right? because sometimes just in a restaurant waiting for someone and there's a little napkin and you know there's something else and that's what you'll easily do. So I sort of get that of course from my mom as well. She's pretty creative as well and yeah I sort of do that fairly

often just to sort of I think sometimes it's a creative expression sometimes it's a release of energy. >> Oh wow. That that's very cool. In fact you you've been a sculptor as well. >> Yes. >> Painter sculptor a bunch of things. Right. So there's a lot of creative streak. It's not a streak per se. I think there >> it's it's it's I think everyone has a go-to. Right. Right. >> Yeah. So, the go-to for some is, you know, check for the goto for some is cooking. The go-to for someone is

whatever as well. So, I've got a couple of those, but I'm definitely someone who likes to paint. >> That's amazing. Uh, so after that, you did your B schooling. >> Yes. >> From nurs, which is not too far from where I'm from where we are sitting right now. >> Yes. >> Uh, and then followed by your PhD in consumer behavior. Right. uh were there any key moments during your educational growth as well and learnings as well which led you to where you are today? I

mean any pivotal moments that that you or learnings from these institutions. >> I think NM has really been I think uh a great platform for me to I think just one one level is to sort of I think build some of the greatest relationships that I have today. So those key sort of friends that I made there while in that B school are some of the closest I have as well and it continues to sort of be uh I think schooling or education then I think AB was a little different only simply because the fact that I think uh I think there was a lot of interpersonalization which happened

primarily because we grew up in times where there was not too much of social media digital and all that as well. We were pretty I would think sometimes you would think that yes we were a little more bookish >> but having said that I think the sort of professors were very very involved with all of us and we were with them as well. >> So it's extreme that interpersonal relationship and even today if you ask me I have most of my professors names on my phone >> and if I want to even after 20 years pick up a call and ask them something

about marketing or consumer behavior or something else I can easily pick up a call and I know that that person will respond to me as well. >> That's fantastic. So I've known them and I think it's just about knowing them as namesake >> but today I think over a period of time I think those relationships are beyond the fact that they know my entire family and vice versa as well. So those relationships have just bloomed and sort of blossomed I think further as well and uh I think a lot of the sort of marketing principles a lot of those I

think fundamentals were sort of I think given or ingrained to me at the B school for sure. >> That makes a lot of sense. In fact, I've uh personally met you quite a few times now and uh I have seen some of your social media interactions as well. Uh I've noticed this very interesting and probably humble habit of yours as well. I have noticed that you build those relationships with a lot of people irrespective of their demographics, right? uh be it a hotel or you know nice hotel and you know the manager there but you also know the waiting staff there

very very well by name including the security personnel in the front of the hotel at the lobby you know that person as well right and you've been uh very very nice to a lot of people you've built those relationships there as well so I think you're very very uh relationshipdriven person at large I mean or because because in corporate life you become very transactional is what I've been told I understand uh but I think you have continued that vibe of building relationships since since being a child. >> I think for me it's I think life is all

about people. >> Mhm. >> And uh if you forget the fact that I think where we've come from or what we want to be or what we will be and just be with the people that we are around in that moment, right? It's about living that moment and being in those few hours where you are. So whether you spoke about these examples in a coffee shop or in a hotel or whatever as well. I think everyone's doing some role play for us right and if I think we are not able to realize the people around us that time I think it's that's the way maybe I think

it's not I never think something is right or wrong but that's really the way sort of I've always believed that I think the people around us really make us for our the life our day our hours and everything right so someone serving us a cup of coffee in a restaurant someone kind of even sort of sometimes cleaning a room for us in a hotel everything matters and without those people life incomplete you know I'm I'm actually observing a very interesting pattern in this in this conversation already right uh your educational background to your upbringing uh has

always revolved around people centricity which means and then your PhD in consumer behavior as well right is that one of the focal points which led you to get into media and advertising >> I got into media I think by chance >> okay Yeah, let's face it. I think we're typically you know young uh brash um sort of loud uh sort of a you know from South Bombay again I'm saying you know kind of knowing clearly what you know you're going to be studying at a certain point in time and then suddenly yes I did in my uh pretty much early college itself I sort of did subjects like

marketing and advertising at my sort of first college itself and I was doing my summer internships and in the summer internships I can still remember in one of my internships I was with an ad agency. >> Okay. >> And uh literally I was only 17 of age. >> Yeah. First internship at an ad agency and what fascinated me was some of the shoots which would happen with you know various people for some brand campaign and some stuff and of course I was an executive I was doing my internship. I was seeing from the side sometimes doing

some little work on the side helping some stuff as well. But clearly I think what fascinated me was some good-looking hot chicks which came into the office for sure. And they would happen all the time. Trust me, just so often so often. And I was like, "Bloody hell, these guys are having the time of their life." You know, the best of the names were coming to their office and having a shoot or whatever as well. And I kind of probed. I asked them questions saying, you know, is this really what advertising is all about? They said, "No, no, of course it's not." But I realized there was some

fun they were having for sure. >> Got it. >> So I think that was I think the first uh perhaps the thought which sort of I think came in my mind as a guy saying you know what maybe you'd be around with good-looking people >> right? >> Yeah. You could easily you don't need to try very hard to get a date. You would get it pretty flippantly as well. So that happened by complete I think chance stroke choice. Yeah both the words for sure as well. And then I kept going with the flow.

>> That's amazing. That's super candid and thank you so much for sharing that perspective. No, that that's uh that's that's fair, right? And that's fair because uh I I still think that you couldn't have excelled at what you do today >> if probably those linkages didn't exist, right? And I think at at the core of you, >> you understand human behavior very very well. And that is that allows you to solve for or create value basically at the end of the day, right? Sure. >> The different structures and journeys

that you've had. In fact uh you know I wanted to talk to you about some of the early mentors that you had in your life. Now I have noticed this on gurupima or teachers day uh on LinkedIn you share a post every year without fail at least for the last few years that I've noticed that right and you have tagged a bunch of people you've had photographs with them >> uh and uh and I think the list is not normally always common there might be some common names but there are also a lot of different names like you mentioned you have all your professors

>> on your phone book today as well and you know very very well established relationships there. So there's a lot of value you give to your mentors as well. Do you want to talk to us about a little a little bit about uh some of the mentors who have really had a very instrumental impact in your journey very early in your journey? >> No, absolutely. I think uh there's no place that I haven't sort of spoken about him. I think this can be yet another is I think uh whatever that I know of digital with the word D ending in L clearly is one person responsible.

Mr. balatrition. I think he was the person who you know I moved into and joined as readiff eusion and then of course it was called rediff on the net >> for a while before it got recristened as read of.com as well and uh this is really early mid90s >> and u people didn't know really in terms of sort of what this beast was in fact even I didn't know to be honest what I'm getting into at rediff.com right >> yeah I was just told that sort of hey you know what you know the chairman of redefusion also is setting up this sort of little company called Rediff on the

net. Hm >> I think uh the time that we spent I think uh in those initial years I think we use this word startup very very easily today >> but those were times when we didn't even know what startup meant right >> but it was in its true sense a startup because we began life abai literally from a one BHK apartment >> oh wow >> literally and we were just 14 people including two people who were actually people who did all errands we would call office boys go to do all of that as

well, right? And Ajit would really sort of I think uh talk to us, sit with us, tell us and he would really have this vision of what the world is going to be, >> you know, and uh we didn't know I'm telling you in those years that we created something called chat rooms. >> H >> today we're on a you know podcast studio which is really fancy and cool and hip and all that as well. But chat rooms were essentially a place that you know you could chat with Samar Khan, you could chat with someone else and this was way back and imagine the year of

9798. >> Yeah. >> And lacks and lacks of people would come in into these chat rooms. So I think Ajit had this vision of doing things very very early. >> He was the one who really gave India the first email and all of these things in digital marketing in terms of advertising and some stuff. I think had it not been that I was not uh perhaps blessed to have him as a mentor or as my manager, I do not think I would even have had this career of digital as well because I think it began from there. I

think then it just became from learning, it became liking, from liking it became loving. From loving it became really about what I really like every day >> and I want to do it more and more and more. So I think if that I think foundation wasn't set up and I think he really sort of I think took the effort at one level he was a go-to guy. M >> so he was very clear in terms of getting things done and he was you know he made that really implicit to us in terms of what we need to sort of do but I think he was also someone who would tell you really in terms of if you didn't know

for example right today in the internet space you know we have these terms which we use very very often and we hear of and jargon impressions clicks attribution things of that sort you know he spoke about those terms 30 years ago >> wow >> literally 30 years ago Maybe he didn't really get on to things like CPS and C all of those things, but at least he knew exactly in terms of the fact that this is really the currency in which you could look at how, you know, uh it's important to look at a way to map whether you know that website is, you

know, getting traffic, right? Traffic, if you're doing something for a brand as well, is it working, not working? And I think it was these little things that he sort of I think told us all which got us not just to believe in his vision but I think also because I think some of us began working so closely with him to be honest. I think we just felt that natural love and I still remain forever indebted in terms of the fact that today whatever that I know is perhaps because of him. So one man which comes to my mind immediately clearly is that sort of person for sure. Uh I think if I had to

pick maybe a second person uh I think a couple of years later in my career I sort of was on the other side of the fence which is on the advertising services side of it. Yeah. And I was one of the first guys who sort of I think joined into uh a system or a company called Havas then it was you know in different uh uh spaces called differently. So they had a a media vertical called MPG called media planning group. They had a creative outfit called Euro RSCG which was the main sort of flagship in the same group as well. And the digital vertical of

theirs was called media contacts and uh I still remember I was I think literally one of the first guys hired in this region to sort of build that narrative for them. Um I had great you know bosses who sort of hired me as well and my sort of country manager then Anita Nayara was responsible to sort of tell me in terms of what my role would be but of course I was reporting more to global uh and the person that I think the two three people I can still name very easily is the global CEO a gentleman called Don Eperson he's based out of Boston and I think he's absolutely fantastic just to

sort of I think just uh be able able to uh tell you the deep I think thoughts of what the digital way of I think communication is going to change. >> Yeah. And those are days I think uh abai the years of between 2007 onwards when I was there as well and digital wasn't still mainline >> right >> it was still uh less than 1% of the ad dollar >> literally from that perspective but I think don and the second person I can name very clearly is I think we had a global CEO called Anthony Rind um I

think you know I pick a lot of the things from him just because of the fact that I think he had a certain swagger with him. >> He just had a certain style which I fell in love with. >> Nice. >> Yeah. I think despite the fact that, you know, you're an agency, people were thoughtful that, you know what, you're an agency, you can easily wear denims and some stuff, but I would see that this gentleman had a way of carrying himself, >> okay,

>> at a client meeting or meeting other people and some stuff. And I just realized that he is different. And I often had these even oneto ones with him and said hey and I would call him Ant and of course over a period of time I got friendly with him as well. Anthony was his name and he just told me a few things that hey you know what you don't need to necessarily follow and look at other people around you or look at your seniors just dress the way you want to yeah and in the digital space nothing is you know like a rule book >> so I picked a lot of those things from

both of those people not just from a lens of India >> I think both of them really showed the world to me I was very fortunate extremely early in my career I may have had the fortune to perhaps visit over at least 30 to 40 countries, >> right? >> Yeah. In various capacities in terms of workshops, mancoms, you know, fun sessions and all of that across APAC, Europe, of course, Havas being friends, so Europe and all that as well. And I think it gave me a lot of perspective, especially meeting my counterparts in

other countries. So while of course when I began life I was essentially the one man on the ground to look at India and grow India as a market but I think it came naturally to me and it became easy and I kept growing the team as well. I moved from India role to South Asia and I think uh God was kind that I think it was right timing and even then I think it was still 1% but I think what really I think kept me going is I think this whole thought from Dawn Ant and so many other people is that you know what be at it >> right

>> really you know if you're going to consistently just educate the clients really yeah even that is half your work done right because if you don't educate your clients that time think about that time talking about almost 20 years ago, 18 years ago because that education finally has brought the clients to spending 50% of the budgets now. >> Wow. >> So some of us if we didn't tell them what search was, what video was, what something else was, what something else was, I don't think that magic would have been around right now. And to be honest,

ne I'm not a techie as such. >> Someone who's a on the business side of things as well. But I think uh learning through some of these people also gave me a lot of those technology nuances uh words terms of course over the over a period of time of course I did get my hands dirty do some stuff as well of course I still haven't written code that's something which I want to do and that's something which a uh is a mustd do or a kind of thing to do in 2025 hopefully you'll do that as well but yeah I think those two people come easy to me as well as mentors

>> w that that's amazing and thank you so much for sharing such uh interesting pointers, perspectives and pearls of wisdom, right? Because they're actually very profound a lot of points points that you provided, right? Because I realized that some people uh you you know have a relationship with where they give you perspectives where you learn from. Some people just by their presence also have a aura that you start looking up to them. They inspire you in different ways apart from the conversations. Right? So either which way there's this uh mentorship that's

being provided right. So thank you for sharing such a profound example. In fact >> uh you spoke about reiff uh you know it was a behemoth that you know people realized much later. >> Uh but the second one which was uh times of India you were transitioning triumphs of India as a print behemoth to a digital one. Right. And you were involved in that whole transition period for them. Yes. And uh lots of brands for the first time started having marketing success stories being created on the digital side as well. And like you mentioned uh many of them today for the

kind of ad spend that they have on digital wouldn't have existed if you and a few of your colleagues or peers at that point of time wouldn't have laid those foundation stones. And then you spoke about AAS as well. >> Yes. >> There again you were instrumental in Mobix if I'm not wrong which was a mobile first marketing unit right? >> Yes. which was something that was happening for the first time in India probably globally as well. You know this was picking up and you you know went and went ahead and you know kind of got this

going right? >> Yeah. uh could you give us a few examples maybe during that journey as well where you know you may have found it difficult or challenging at that point of time to convince brands to go digital right because >> far too many far too many J I can't tell you how frustrating sometimes it was when you went and you had so Havas being you know a global uh sort of uh company also French in origin I think a lot of the clients are French >> right >> by that you know kind of ease of getting

business if that's the word they use and therefore the likes of Cap, Gemini, Air France, KLM and so many others would happen by default. You'd work with them in all markets. Right. >> Right. uh and I still remember it was literally I think on my sort of I think second month and you know they said you know Air France works with us in all the regions and I had just come back literally from Paris in my induction come back and I was meeting the team the local team of Air France in India talking in some stuff and they said yes we've got this campaign coming up and we

got to plan that and all of those things as well and here we're putting all the numbers trying to put plans creative thinking all of that as well literally and I realized that in the overall scheme of things they already year marked what they want to do because we're putting all those ideas and they say yeah you know what we're going to spend approx I still remember that very well because it's it hit me so hard they said we'll spend about about 52 lakhs and we'll do about three lakhs with you on digital and they said even three is actually out

to the little more if you can cut three and make it two it'll be better so we could put that little extra on a hoarding or something >> and I'm like just listening to the people and I'm like okay you know we put we're presenting ideas and those ideas itself are like you know of what eight lakhs and nine lakhs and some stuff and all those ideas they said great ideas and thinking we'll do it next time maybe next campaign and that journey continued by trust me in those years from 2006 7 8 you know we put some of those best ideas but it was always the fact that you

would be left with either the crumbs >> right >> either the fact that saying that you know we've decided and year marked this already >> right >> so those kind of things which come to me easier this was from the client that we worked with all geographies. So almost 200 countries have worked with Air France and this is really what I sort of felt and of course I did share that then with local teams. I gave that feedback I to dawn and some stuff they said it doesn't matter it's okay even if you got

three it's fine it's completely okay as long as you even got the three >> because there could be times when they would not even looked at digital look at three as a winning. So imagine then that's the vision that some people like Dawn and Ant had that to say even if you manage to get from the overall campaign three which is they look at it from a different perspective three is already 5% of what that overall campaign was right >> so what you already accomplished is that so that's what I take back sometimes as well that's so those are things which I

can easily remember but one client which I will never forget I still remember is >> a big CPG brand called Wreckit >> Mhm. And uh there's this very very interesting uh lady who used to run the media business marketing business and she's a very dear friend who runs the uh Bill and Belinda Gates Foundation for India now and that time she was like super so difficult that everyone got scared of her even the biggest guys in MPG senior guys who sort of talk about print and TV and some stuff would be like fearsome when they had a meeting with her as well right and uh I you know

had the first or second meeting at that time she was like digital no ways I'm happy CPRP is all the typical jargon on television so that would never get you know kind of looked at from a digital lens so you know one campaign second campaign third campaign like 10 campaigns happen with record no digital at all right >> okay >> and I was like what do you do how do you break into this you know this lady's thought process right literally how do you break into her thought process >> so then this big campaign was coming up

I still remember of deall which is one of the flagship ship brands, >> right? big big campaign and uh you know under her there was another lady as well and uh she said let's try some stuff maybe you can do little thought process of just googling up some information and some stuff and she said okay fine let's present this stuff to the super boss there >> and I did all of that as well and we did like literally I think six to seven meetings >> and the guys in the mainline teams mainline is in terms of print TV and

those people are saying you know the facetime that you're getting is 2 3 hours we don't even get half an hour >> but we get two grow campaigns >> right >> yeah so at one level I felt that they were mocking me because the fact of saying that you know what I'm getting 3 hours with the client side and I'm still not getting any money spent >> right >> yeah and they were getting all the money spent as well finally I said you know what let's just crack into that all >> and believe you me the first campaign

that we got was a search marketing campaign just Google Adwords and some stuff and they said really do a good job of it and let's spend with one lakh H >> I said okay came back literally to the office I still remember some of the people in my team as well and we got this news we shared with Anita and many people as well they were laughing at us >> for the quantum >> yeah for the quantum >> they said one lakh is one spot on TV >> right >> or less than that

>> so what have you done what have you accomplished >> but I said at least we've managed to scratch the surface somewhere >> right >> but I think that in a manner jolted with me >> and in a manner still sort of said let's be at it >> right >> but we kept being at it we kept being at it and in the time that I continue to be in house for a good close to whatever almost three and a half years four years we managed to make it a good business uh

I can comfortably today say that I'm not in Havas neither is wreckit with Havas as well but today Rekit spends about 28% of their overall budget on digital >> oh brilliant And I think had it not been for that one first campaign of de all and some many others they would have never tasted or understood the importance of digital and today when they spend about closer to about 600 cr and we do the math >> it's a good amount of money which they spend on digital >> true of that >> so

>> that's that's massive that's massive >> so yeah I think a lot of these I think we've had trials we've had tribulations we've had our moments clearly sort of in those moments we've sort of felt like oh god what the hell you could have done better but yeah >> this this this conversation of yours and amazing examples that you've just shared reminds me of a TV show called as madmen >> have you seen it >> yes >> yeah so it reminds me of that because uh they expose you through various challenges of converting clients and

talking to them about ideas which are probably ahead of their time >> sure >> and clients just don't want to listen to that because they are so used to seeing what they're used to seeing and they're not ready to experiment beyond that Right. >> Because everything is very media buying media selling is so ROId driven >> that they don't want to run those experiments. So after after a then you went to join Reliance ADA group where you are leading digital transformation. This could have been again very

challenging because you were working with multiple group businesses. How difficult or easy was it to manage and kind of consolidate a lot of these group businesses to come to singular strategies or were they very very different and personalized to each of them? I think I can tell you one thing abai for sure is that uh there's some very large behemoths Indian organizations which are still familyowned but have grown to the size and scale of a Tata or a Reliance or a Bila and what have you as well and I think the sort of I think

way they're sort of I think culturally built is very very entrepreneurial >> right >> uh so at one level there's a hard thought in terms of profitability in terms of making money in terms of the way you run your is but at the same time they also give you a lot of freedom to you know be able to give leaders or those teams or verticals to kind of I think have the vision to do it >> which is why of course they give you that uh good salary package they give you the opportunities and all of those so I think with all of those perks but

also comes the fact that I think uh a fair amount of responsibility and it came fairly early in my career as well but as the right word that you used right because it was such a large organization and multiple stakeholders, multiple verticals, multiple organizations which are listed companies within the group itself, right? So to sort of I think have one clearcut uh strategy was almost impossible but clearly I think every vertical. So for example Reliance Capital would have its own or Reliance Energy would have its own. Reliance

Communications in its Aftar then which was the first sort of I think big telecom brand then. I think all of those were different verticals led by different CEOs and I think my role essentially was to try and play this critical path of trying to educate all of those different CEOs and leaders and those teams in terms of their digital journey >> whether they should be doing uh you know a forward moving strategy on digital but they should be looking at you know just backward integration but they should be looking at cost cutting in terms of

marketing multiple multiple things in terms of I think was put out in terms of the opportunities. But I think it was challenging to say the least because I think a lot of those CEOs really sat in really fancy cabins and they also had a fair amount of big ego. >> H >> so for someone to tell them what you're doing wrong is right or what you're doing right is wrong was not something which they would hear easily right >> because they were used to doing things in a particular fashion. Suddenly you

come in to sort of say this is what you've got to do and digitize it bring technology in it was not something which a lot of people typical CEOs of organizations 60 65 plus 60 whatever that age irrespective of that they were a certain mindset so I think my role really was to I think be able to work around those mindsets and I think also what worked for me even then was I think just the fact of being years to them >> and I was always trying to understand that you know where it is someone who's running a Reliance hospital

>> or if it is running a mobile brand or whatever as well what fascinated them their consumers and their things and I kept I think trying to uh tell them what they could do with using digital. >> So it was never something which was saying that you know what the world is suddenly moved to this so you got to move in that direction because I realized that if I if you use that approach it may not be the best thing to do. So it was more about I think making them very very inclusive in understanding them as their DNA as their people of being leaders in the

organizations right >> uh educating them and I think thankfully little by little by little I think that worked as well today I think some of those CEOs of Reliance are also dear friends they may not be in Reliance today but I think uh the little thing that we did there as well was to sort of I think at some level was creating also an internal ecosystem so I think along the path path. I think what also came to me from I think the closer to the chairman's office was setting up a little digital hub >> right

>> for the whole group. >> Got it. So we created this entire ecosystem called worldwide open which was this uh sort of centralized digital marketing services sort of a organization also I think when I think back it was a little thoughtful already from the chairman's office right >> I think uh companies across the world you hear of those companies or big IT companies who keep digital hubs and you know spokes and all of those things but we sort of one of the first few companies of Indian origin to think along those lines make a team but still

at the same time while it was made it's not that therefore I got business easily I still had to convince the Reliance communications people that we can do work for you better than what you would do with Macan in terms of your communication >> better than what you would do with say a mainline agency or some stuff and I think win their confidence >> so although the kind of uh space was given to us we wrote our own book >> we really wrote our own digital book for Reliance. >> And we I think grew from a team of

literally a one or two people to like more than hundreds of people. >> Wow. >> Literally. And uh thankfully I think while a lot of the businesses over a period of time also got digitized, right? So for example, whether it was Reliance Capital, it was I think even called as sort of Reliance Mutual Fund which is now Nepon. >> Right. >> Right. I think I still remember that time. There used to be a time when sort of I think even implementation of things like SAP and many other things and cloud

was first of its kind >> right >> literally first of its kind people didn't do it then >> but you know we were the ones who really sort of pushed that thought to sort of literally saying that let's put everything you know let's make everything easy and you know let's create those spaces let's create that digital box let's create that library all of it and thankfully it just continued there >> that's fantastic Like in fact you spoke about some some of these activities

being the first time that they were happening right it's not just for uh Reliance uh you know you have done this over and over again with various brands because after Reliance with Sony you brought the Indian idol format to the country you were also responsible for for the first time in India seeing a show which was consumer interactive in nature where consumers on the TV screens were able to interact with the show live by voting and participating in various activities which had never happened before. Can you shed some light on that as well because

see again for me as a person from who's been working towards strategy and innovation uh too for for about 12 years now I have noticed this that you know a lot of my experiments have been towards enhanced consumer experiences which means better mechanisms and channels of messaging for the brand to the consumers and this is exactly for the first time that has happened uh in the Indian industry. Do you want to talk a little bit about what those challenges were like and what the real outcomes looked like at that point in time? No, I still remember that very well. I think because

I think the format Indian idol is something which is a global format which free mantle owns across is the I think uh licensed sort of format holder across the world as well and I was leading free mantle for India >> and at one level the job was to sort of sell those formats to television broadcasters but I think globally the format also involved the fact of making the format interactive. M >> uh I distinctly remember those were very very early days of feature phones not even the sort of smartphones. So the feature phones were there in India then

and uh most of our homes were still using landlines. >> Yeah. It was still you know one person who was a little more accomplished in his life or one person in the house had a mobile phone. >> Right. >> Yeah. And the rest of course had land line of course for their communication. Right. And therefore the thought was if you want to make this uh show come a little bit alive and the format of the show was really to kind of give entertainment its sort of uh space again in the music space international format

as well. I still remember the earliest meetings and this was the first year the first season and we had Sonu who's a great friend now. where Farakh Khan and Anumu Malik and they were like global tala format we did work in India you know got the right people and they were thoughtful and they sort of came on board as well and I still remember some of those initial meetings with the three of them they said you know we want to make this work but how do you sort of I think make the same what you're doing the US and London and all those things happen here as well so you've got to

figure out some way so they said I still remember these ideas actually came from I think u someone like Anu Malik and he said you But uh literally India lies in the smallest of villages. He said you know he was giving me those instances that his music percolates down to someone who was driving a rickshaw in a tiny village >> and that's how they listen on that radio transistor or whatever that time as well. So we was trying to then I was having talks with my global teams and they said hey you know what you guys do it the interactive piece across mobile

which is still a phone there even then feature phone there. How do we do it? And that's when we began to think, can we do something on landline? >> Right. >> Yeah. And those conversations began with the BSNL, MTNLS of the world. And believe you me, I have had more I think discussions and more flights to Hyderabad in those years and ever in my life because I was in Hyderabad parked like twice a week. >> Mhm. >> To convince because Hyderabad apparently is the seat or the center for basal

exchange in the country if you didn't know that. >> No, I didn't know that. >> Yeah. And uh some people there were telling us you know what is this nonsense and they kept asking you to fill up form circari company right typically why do you want because we wanted one number one central number they've never done this before ever >> and I was trying to explain to them if you do this what is the opportunity for you as a government company to make money for example right phone and people are going to sort of call up and you

know that revenue is going to come for example he said no one since no one's going to call up who is going to see one show and call up and all of those things. Finally that those discussions happened because of those discussions taking longer >> the actual uh dates of the thought process of doing the shoots changed and kept changing. H >> I still remember Sono got irritable at one point saying you know I've committed we've got to do it and I said no but we have not got this or it'll not be interactive

>> right >> finally I think after 7 months there was one gentleman from hydro said gave us that nod >> and the phone line so if you called up from a phone number on a toll-free number which was sort of given that would still cost you as a customer it would cost you 2 pis >> yeah And the math was what that they would keep a large chunk of it and as an organization between me and the channel we would keep a certain percentage as well. But believe you me God was on our side or something miraculously happened

and we created history at 55 million people who called up in that year. That year is literally sort of the year of 2005 and six first season. Of course, it was the biggest season. It's those numbers are never repeated as well. 55 million people. This is only on the land line. >> Wow. >> Do the math. 55 million into rupees 40. >> Those guys were flooded with money and they realized this is an opportunity for every show to become interactive on TV. >> Wow. >> But we started

>> that's huge. Yeah. And then we went we did the same thing same thing on the smartphones as well and the sorry feature phones then as well and opened out you know calling there as well and we went a little further to sort of say you know in those days it was all about I think in the mobile space there was this interesting thing called wallpapers screen savers jokes and you know behind the scenes we made a lot of that because I think value added services then in the mobile world or the telephony world was good business >> right

>> so we tied up with I think every telecom company that time it was idea and there was Vodafone then and Airel and all of those companies and we give these creative services and trust me people went mad people were mad just to sort of see Abiji's pictures or Aul vya's pictures they're all big celebrities today on Insta and whatever as well but these are the guys in the first season right >> if you see them then if you see them now you'll see wow they've changed as well true but those they really sort of I think got

>> I think people I think it was also the fact People had never sort of understood interactive TV. They didn't realize that they could suddenly see sort of someone like Abhijit in their phone. They didn't know they could, you know, save his wallpaper and all of this. So all of these became like sudden new revenue streams and think about it when those when things were happening then we started saying hey you know what we went into brands and said you want to be part of this as well >> right? >> So then brands became part of the

process because where consumers are brands will come. >> True. >> Yeah. So we immediately got brands in in all of those value added services as well. Not to say of course we had brands participating in the show on television as well. But I think yes uh great I think uh had it not been for that mad persistence or that thought in terms of really getting it because at some point literally there were moments from frustration from headquarters saying let it be >> let's just do just mobile and let the

landline not happen because this is government. You can't shake them. Now you spoke about resilience and perseverance very early in our conversation today and you've mentioned this again right this is such a profound example of how so much can be achieved >> if you are perseverant >> but the I'll tell you what the the better story is I still remember because money started flowing right >> right right >> yeah money started flowing and as a company Freemantle is very very transparent very very prudent about

making sure that partners get their money as well >> right >> and uh I in my life saw one of my first checks I still can't fathom how many zeros it had and I still was told you know personally go into a flight again to Hyderabad and give this present this check to the gentleman who nodded and gave you that approval and he was also delighted he was like is this is this for true >> and this is his first check and he's like he sme he literally I'm guessing he smelt the coffee then

>> wow that is $130 million if I'm not wrong only on phone calls and there would be so many other sources of revenue as well. >> Yes. >> Wow. That's massive. >> So we kind of opened the floodgates and of course every show pretty much every reality show and every sort of interactive show they did and I think thankfully of course and in that process but I think a lot of partners came along as well. We obviously got a lot of support from telecom companies and multiple people. So it's I wouldn't

never want to say that this was something that free metal or Kushell did really. It was a real big effort that everyone worked towards. It was Vodafone, it was Airel because they also pushed all of that as well. So even if if you sort of picked up, you know, some of those old ads first season, you would have short codes saying, you know, SMS so and so and then mobile, I still remember it was SMS 52525, >> right? >> Yeah. Because it was it was also thoughtful number which was put by Sony. Yeah. So it was their number which you

could it was all about being able to relate to a number right we wanted to keep it simple so everything which happened across Sony as a platform then was 2525 >> wow that's amazing that's so thoughtful and so complicated yet attemp impact at such a scale I think when I look at it from a consumer lens the impact was about giving or letting the consumers feel that they had a power in their hands >> literally >> you know which they could immediately see it on live TV.

>> No, I I think it was basically democratizing the fact that you have a reason to choose your Indian idol. >> It was not it was not Sony, it was not Freemantle, it was no one. It was saying you decide literally who you want India's first Indian idol. Yep. I remember seeing that show by the way. And I still remember the you know the last uh episode that we shot and uh you know clearly amongst us we we thought this guy has it to be it >> and we were completely taken aback that he didn't actually literally and there was a black dog who came ahead and won

the first one. But it was pure it was pure the uh transparency of the system that how many of votes that person got he or she would win that coveted crown. >> Exactly. And I think that that that was a game changer that that's been a game changer. Wow. >> Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's very inspiring. uh and I I know for a fact that you know you have uh over the years worked with more than 400 brands or maybe it's a dated number it might be a lot more as well but 400 500 odd brands that you've worked with you have gotten more than 50 awards uh

for various different innovation transformation activities that you have done right along with these brands uh wanted to check with you is there any particular campaign that created the most impact or that that that just you know is the closest to heart >> honestly if you ask me it's not about I always believe that I'm a constant learner >> and I still feel that uh none of the work that I have done till date it might have won uh global recognition awards in fact a lot of the work even in can and

multiple places as well but I've still not felt that I have done like the best thing >> yeah but I take pride and I take a lot of uh learning from I think a lot of my seniors and I think people who have taught me a lot of things as well. I think I clearly think that something which works and resonates with me is and I'm sure a lot of people our age easily millennials can easily talk about the fact that if we were to think of one of the most favorite advertising India has seen heard or remembered is that of the girl coming onto a cricket field

>> literally just dancing her way through and uh just creating such a rush. Yeah, it was something which even today when I see that ad it gives me goosebumps. >> Mondly. Yeah. You know, and it's not just the it's it's everything coming together. >> Yeah. It's the whole jingle. It's a narrative. It's that moment and of course that's one slice of that girl of course on the cricket field is other many sort of films as well. Of course it's you know people will say this was really the push touch or the sonal dra touch and of course they're veterans and

people that I look up to. So I think I think for me uh I would never feel that I was uh someone who's done any of that as well. I think some of these uh campaigns have really I think uh always been so inspirational that you need to sort of I think touch people and I think advertising or marketing or communication is all about I think being able to finally I think connect with you at heart. >> True. >> Whether you finally buy that product or you don't buy that brand is all secondary. Right. But if what you will

feel about that first rush of that girl on the cricket field, right? >> Or I'll tell you another campaign which I think is something that I love to talk about as well is that you know all of us especially most of us who live in smaller homes as compared to so many of our friends in other cities is you know our home is a typical 1 BHK 2 BHK if you're lucky in Bombay. >> Yeah. But your home is sort of your space. >> It's your comfort. But it's your, you know, your little little go-to. But it's it's that home which defines your

parents, how they've made it for you or your children or everyone who's part of that family unit, >> right? And I think many years back I think there was again this very exceptional campaign done by beans which says you know >> yeah it's a story which I think is seamless across the entire country because I think a home is a home in any part of India >> true >> whether you look at the northeast you look at the south you look at Jammu anything as well

>> and it's so beautifully scripted and thought about because at the end of the day it is that space which is what you make of your home. Whether it's your mom, whether it's your wife, whether it's your kid, right? It's about every single thing. And I think it's about these little insights which we pick from I think these communication pieces which always makes me sort of always hungry to say that I still have a lot to learn. M >> I still have I still haven't done the best yet because there's so many others who've really gone ahead and done and created these marvels for India

literally now this is really I think I would I would sometimes call that yes these guys have reached the pinnacle of success with some of these campaigns and all that as well but of course advertising has changed trust me I think above from the time that you know we can almost you know easily speak what Asian paints and cadbury because it's been times when there wasn't as much of content Today literally there's so much of it that it's you know even if there's something great being done from marketing perspective it'll live its

journey >> right >> you'll not remember it even after like 3 months it'll just go up there it'll remain a case study it'll go up in terms of sales uplift whatever profitability all of those things but you will never be able to speak of it passionately you will never feel wow you'll never even remember it to be honest M >> so which is what I think with a lot of new I think uh channels coming up new mediums coming up and all of this and we're living a world which is so going

to be across real and AI and so much so much more and digital and some stuff that I think marketing is going to be changing so dramatically so differently >> right >> but I'm still a bit old school of thought here >> so where I think that while AI comes into our lives and all that happens and all of this happens as well if If you're not going to be able to connect, >> if you're not going to get loose flesh, you've not done it. And no AI in the room can give you an equal flesh. >> Wow. That that's that's a strong

statement to make and thank you so much for sharing your perspective because uh I was actually about to ask you this, right? There's a lot of new technologies that are coming in including AI. What is your take on it? So it it gives me that clarity in terms of at the end of the day if you're not able to make that human connect kind of get those human emotions out there and it's not it's not going to crack it right >> well I think I'm sure there are loads of people who think differently some of the biggest companies in the world which is

the likes of an accenture or what have you sort of think that you know clearly we're moving in that massive scale massive so of course we can massproduce do things at scale all of those things will it really make you feel wow will give through that moment or will it be the rush? Perhaps not. When you perhaps still see a great ad which was done by some of the biggest brands in the world whether it's Nike or Coca-Cola and so many such examples, it somewhere connects with you and that I think the thinking comes from a good creative thinker who thinks a human being. M

>> so with due respect to all the tech and all the AI if you're not going to have hi in life advertising will lose its sheen >> hi for people who do not know what he was talking about is human intelligence right >> yes >> uh no that's very fair right because tech in these cases can be enablers to bring the scale that we're looking for distribution or for some certain other aspects of advertising but not really replacing the human quotion there right the emotional quotient there

>> which is so critical for that ad to create the right kind of emotions in every human who's watching it uh you also mentioned about increase in channels so the channels have become fragmented which means the distribution is across so many different channels and it's no longer a unified source uh what I've personally seen uh in the space where I've tried to use a bit of AI is distribution right uh at scale uh the Shah Rukh Khan had uh for the >> monles >> that's where AI was used and I was you

know kind of having conversations with the same founder who built this out right I was doing some work with them in in the past as well >> uh but not just that I tried a similar company when I was at TVs and we ran a couple of campaigns in regional languages uh where it could be personalized to every individual so imagine a Amitab Buchanan or MSD were brand ambassadors for various different products of TVS group speaking to you itself. Yes. >> Yeah. So they were having a one-on-one conversation. Hey Kushell. Hey Abbe. And

then they would talk about your pain point because we were able to look at digital footprint of a consumer and see that you know they were probably stuck at financial section a lot more. >> Sure. >> Which means they have some they're deliberating about what is the best mechanism to go about making a purchase financially. >> So there could be a one-on-one message from Amitab Bachan saying that hey AB we noticed that you wanted to buy a black Apache RTR 310. >> Sure. and uh you're looking for

financial options if you want to get more insights and understanding over this click here to talk to a support and I would be like wow is that really you know send getting a message from Bachin in fact I remember doing this u when rephrase had partnered with mand for not before the shahukhan ad as well they did it with ritik for the raba ad >> yes yes >> and uh I created a you know a video out of that too because of course I was working parallelly with rephrase as well. So I created that for my younger sister whose name is Shauna. So and I

sent it in the cousins group. >> Yes >> where says hi Ab hi Shauna. Shauna wishing you very very wishing both of you a very happy Raabhan and I think you know both of you fight a lot. You you know you've been having such amazing bond this and that and blah blah blah. says a bunch of things and a majority of my cousins were like how the hell do you know Rythic Russian you know >> right right >> so whereas when I tried something similar with my own persona it had failed uh it could not pass the Turing

test a few months before that but by the time it reached Ryek and they were just replacing a couple of words here or there >> it was actually doing so well where my own cousins were like >> you know bought into it as an experience so yeah so for me distribution became a obvious problem to solve for this in TVs. We could think about let's say a you know a you know country like Mexico or Brazil where instead of us going to one of those you know markets where we already had presence in but hiring a studio hiring a model

>> and training that model to say something and creating a whole ad out of that. We could just use autocreated I mean libraries where we could use a Brazilian looking model to speak Spanish or Portuguese and so on and so forth and distri start distributing. So it became easy. It will never be able to replace core advertising but it was just messaging that became comparatively easier. >> No no no I'm definitely a huge fan of AI as well as much as you know while I have got my own thoughts and perspectives as well. So I think at fundamental levels

it's superbly working. It sort of plays out for you in multiple spaces of I think getting things done faster distribution and so much as well. But I think it it has to be still it's a mix of someone who's thinking in that core central idea which then gets I think exemplified with AI. >> So AI is the enabler. It can't be the person who thinks >> for the idea right. So what you're talking the examples there's got to be someone who thinks of it first >> and then AI then becomes the uh distributor enabler in the process.

>> Makes a lot of sense. Uh sir, what do you think is the future of uh marketing? How does this evolve from here? We've already seen a lot of evolution over the last two decades or more. Where does it what's the next big thing that we'll see in marketing? >> I think there have been a lot of discussions around what we just spoke as well about uh hyperpersonalization at scale >> or the fact of being able to localize for the local community. >> Yeah. So those are big buzzwords in multiple geographies, not just India,

you go to Brazil, you go to Peru, you go to China, you go to Japan, they're pretty much across the world as well. So the ability for marketers to start uh not just in terms of one level of making communication going down to that level, but it is actually creating for products for those customers. >> Got it. >> Yeah. So literally I think some of the best biggest D2C companies which are sort of making splashes and waves and we saw that happening in India minimalist picking up >> a big amount of money for you know 4,000

cr. I think the thought is to sort of let those marketers be also very nimble >> right >> be thoughtful of creating personalized products for people. So we've seen a lot of times in the west we've seen companies making promotions and we sort of see that so often saying they would put because in the west you have you know you'll have max like 50 odd names you'll have Peter and Dawn and John and all of that and you'd have a lot of companies picking those names and you know making it sound personal and do marketing gimmicks around that

personalization and some stuff but today it's not about just those gratifications. It's actually to say say you know what if for example a CPG brand is able to make for example a noodle specific for Abhai >> right >> or is it making a shampoo specific for Abai's wife now that even if it comes across in a manner that is for me made for me that's really but it can't be in for all organizations right because you will have still some companies which cannot so I think therefore marketing is going to be about I think getting down

to understand consumers so micromanaging literally >> right >> because I think the fact is with all these data signals that we're getting >> whether it is through social or behavioral on all of those things I think we get enough repository of consumer data and knowledge >> if you're able to get that and if you're able to I think listen and if you're able to on the fly create some of those and I think some of the most successful companies today the ones and we call them D2C often enough but they're the

ones who really understand these peeves. So whether it's a luggage company putting you know maybe handles on three sides >> right >> they figure that out for a particular peeve of a customer >> right >> or if it's someone creating a particular soap with perhaps it becoming bulgier in the top and shallow at the bottom it's because of a certain peeve of someone feeling that it's either getting used quickly or it feels better on the skin so I think a lot of these little little

nuances a lot of these things which come out sometimes also through social complaint We've got to realize that today I think the new age brands want to make it big. >> We'll have to figure out problem statements >> or issues which have been there with some of the largest legacy companies which is what is giving the jitters to companies like uni lever today >> or an SLA and the largest companies is that they're losing market share. They're losing customers. they're losing many other things for just the reason

that they haven't been able to do what some of the new people are doing on the block, >> right? >> So, of course, while they go around and completely because of they have the bank uh and the wallets, they can easily pick up those new age companies. But I think a lesson to be learned is I think really about being able to be really uh having your year continue to consumers, the agility to be able to adapt. Of course, technology is not a new thing now. So the fact is it's it's almost as a given that you have to be with it, right? But

if then at all if you're able to either create new need today think about it today a country which we don't know much yet about yet suddenly there is so much talk about country like Indonesia or Croatia or Korea in India as either destinations to go and travel >> right >> or in terms of beauty or in terms of clothing or in terms of food. >> True. there's all of this culture which is coming in >> so I think India sits at a very uh I think I think Indians have this ability to be

able to continually want something new every time >> and it's not about today >> right >> you try and look at 500 years back >> and the queens and the kings and even the people in their villages is >> right >> wanted something new. >> Makes sense. >> Yeah. They wanted a new vegetable, >> right? >> Or they wanted to eat the vegetable differently. >> The queen wanted a different jewel.

>> The king wanted a new horse, >> right? >> And all of that. We're no different. >> We're completely in the center of the world today where one is I think as consumers uh there's this crazy growing upper middle class, >> right? >> Who wants the best out of everything? Hm. >> Wants it fast, wants it young, wants it everything. >> True. >> Wants the best credit card, wants the best bag, wants the best car. All of

those things. At the same time, he also has a urge yet to eat and consume what is locally made. >> Makes sense. >> So therefore, I'm saying India is unique. We're happy to sit in Audi car, but we're happy to have the vapa on the road. >> True. Very true. And we're still happy to go onto a holiday with our grandparents and sort of even sit on the terrace and sleep out on that village terrace in that courtyard. Yeah. Look at the stars up there. And that's what I call India is so unique.

>> Makes sense. Nowhere in the world would you have a unit of 20 people you know in the night for hours just gazing in the stars talking banter talking nonsense or talking god knows what suddenly even running down picking up their booze or nibbling on some stuff and whatever this is India >> it's not going to change and in those moments are when magic if you are able to do as a marketer you got it Right. >> Brilliant. No, that that that makes so much sense and thank you so much for sharing this. This is this is fantastic. Right. I think a lesson for all the uh

you know people who want to get into branding, who want to get into digital transformation, who want to get into advertising. This is such a such an important and valid point because India as a country is such a has such a large population and such a diverse yet impact creating opportunity. Right. So so this is fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing this. >> Yeah. Uh on that note, so I wanted to ask you one last question before I want to get into the rapid fire as well. Uh you have been advising startups, you've been investing in startups, you've been

create, you've been on the board of various companies and brands, right? One of them that's uh uh you know something more recent that has happened is also IIGC Indian influencer governing council. Do you want to share a few perspectives about why this was created? How is that helping? Because content creation today is very different. uh there there have been challenges on both the ends from the brand side from the content creators end and basically from my conversation with you I understand that IGC is for that but for the consumer's perspective a lot of people

now are getting into content creation a lot of them are into content consumption of course how does this body really create impact at a national level >> I think the thought is very simple that again I'm just using the word again India and the same narrative is that because we're so unique uh we're also the largest I content creator economy in the world today. We're the largest consumption of social media in the world. We speak so many different languages. We express in so many different things. And I think because of the the smartphone penetration which has

reached to even uh villages under even less than 100 people, >> right? I think because of that whole feeling of having that ability to do something with that thing in your hand create that moment put it up there through whichever platform right so it's not just the sort of uh platforms like the reels and the stuff that we know of today for example there are enough indigenous Indian companies who got Indian platforms where you put put up content as well and we've seen content creators really get up there I think the pandemic was that I think big I think

point where that really sort of has spurted as well and I think while that's happening we've seen also the fact that I think one is as people we're becoming warriors and we want to have a voice right >> and of all sorts you want to speak >> and I think the same time I think brands have realized the importance of being able to have influencer marketing content marketing as part of their marketing programs >> right >> so we see that while there is brands doing that and we see independent

creators and all of that doing as Well, there was definitely a lot of areas of gray. There were problem statements. There were opportunities and and it will continue to exist as well. Adding the thought to really do is to be able to create some I wouldn't say method to the madness, but I'm just saying can we just hold hands, >> right? >> Can we help the creators in some way? Can we help the marketers in some way? I think very very early to tell about to be honest because it's literally been I think little more than four months only.

We've taken a few baby steps but the endeavor is really to I think create a space for all. I think uh mitigate some of the challenges which exist. Uh there's also some of the largest platforms in our country today whether it's Meta or Google or what have you as well. Uh they're in fact creating some of the first unique propositions for India. So no part of the world some of those tools and tech and products exist but meta is introducing that into India and so is Google >> with their Google AI initiatives and multiple things. So we just feel it is

only right to in terms of timing to have this to be able to help pretty much all of that and let's face it today I think uh someone who uh is 12 years old wants to sort of I think suddenly open his first Facebook account someone who's uh 87 year old and we hear these stories all the time yeah I'm sure all of us go through this because we get requests from our grandparents to become their friends on Facebook >> and we suddenly get requests from you you know, a niece who's 10 and says, "Uncle, you know, have you seen my latest reel?" I'm like, "Really?" Okay.

So, it's that whole space of uh really I think uh everyone wanting to be a part of that creation sort of process, >> but we just want to give it I think just uh maybe just some hand helping. >> Uh or on that on on that note, I would like to get into the rapid fire segment. We have a bunch of very interesting questions that I would like to ask you and get your uh fun answers as well. I'm hopeful that these are fun and uh exciting. >> I hope maybe I hope maybe I can live up to the expectations. I don't know in terms of sort of how rapid is rapid or

how hot is hot the questions but yeah let's go for it. >> I mean it's the other way around. I I hope that they are fun questions for you right uh the first one startup or corporate which one which one do you think is something more exciting at this point in time in your in your journey? >> Startup. >> Startup interesting. Which is your favorite ad campaign? I know you spoke about the Cadbury ad as well. uh the girl who run uh all the page any other ad that you that you really are excited about?

>> I still remember some of the oldest ads in terms of what we sort of grew up literally in terms of hamaraj >> or even this grandfather opening up the fridge and picking up some stuff and there was this bulb. So all of those are sort of >> cases in my mind always. >> Awesome. The most used app in your daily life. >> Wow. WhatsApp. >> WhatsApp. Okay. Uh the best Indian idol memory that you have. >> Wow. Uh I hope uh and I hope Sono doesn't feel bad about this one. And I

still feel that uh clearly it was the second last episode and uh it was a special episode and we really were rooting for one or two people because we thought they had the >> sort of thing to sort of win it and all that as well. and he sort of I think came around and I think did I think uh something to us that told us that really sort of I think this is really the show that you made for the people as well. Right. So I think just telling us that no matter how that you know some people may seem confident and the people who are uh the kind of people that the

channel should promote or get those TRPs or whatever as well. It was that I think moment of truth when he in fact even I think uh fought with some of the channel heads to say remove this footage because you can't be seen as wanting to promote someone. >> Makes a lot of sense and that's so so obvious. I mean yeah I mean as consumers we find it very obvious now. That's right probably. Yeah. But you have to >> but he really he really played that. Uh and I think it was also I think for me it was I think it was I was for for me it was also my first stint in being in

television as well. I realized that now we often discuss it so easily saying that this looks fixed this looks you know put but he was one of those guys who said this is what it should be. >> What media icon living or deceased would you want to go out for dinner with? >> Steve Jobs. >> Fantastic. And why? I think just the person >> it's not at all the apple that he's given us in our hands and as a fruit and all that as well. >> I think I relate to him as a human being.

>> You know, if you've read his books and I've read dime a dozen books of him written by different people >> and each time I've read a book, I've just felt like he was had he been alive, the world would have been a different planet. The world would have been in a different place. >> The iPhone 15 or 16 wouldn't have been the same as what it could have been. Trust me. >> Yeah. >> So 100% there's just one and only Steve. >> Wow. Uh if you had an alternate career as against what you're having right now,

what would that be? >> A chef. >> Oh wow. Okay. Uh which is that one buzz word that gets exploited in more often than not meetings, boardrooms, etc. that you want to put a ban on? >> Digital. >> Which is your favorite pop culture character? It could be a movie character. It could be a opera. It could be comic book, any pop culture character that you think that is very cool. >> For whatever it's worth, I'm old school of thought. Mickey Mouse is for me still the closest to my heart.

>> Oh, nice. Very interesting. And why is that? >> I don't know. Maybe if you grew up with him and the fact that it's the space that you get into no matter what. I think people come alive and you do you enjoy you know what you enjoy in a Disney park >> or you just that entire space. So I just feel I think what Mickey does >> no perhaps character could do at least for me at least. >> No fantastic. Is there a book that you would recommend to all marketers for them to read that?

>> I think far too many but I think uh what I'm liking a lot is the book called Ikiguai. >> Mhm. And it just I think uh tells us all that age is never a thought to say we need to retire >> right. >> We should never feel that we are losers. We should never feel that after a certain age that pension will be over and what are we going to do and so many of those things and I think especially as Indians I think we have I think been conditioned as middle class uh family people that at some point in time you

start need to start building you know corpus and you need to start building saving all of those things but I think if we try and perhaps just read into those thoughtful uh lines of guy tells you that you can have a calling even at 88. >> Correct. >> You can start something even there. That start could be perhaps creating a studio like this. >> It could be perhaps doing a podcast. It could be for example creating a new I don't know uh Indian version of an omelette where you sort of start serving

that in a different fashion. So I don't know what that idea is but it's not at all limited and it's agnostic to age. >> That makes a lot of sense. Uh quick last two ones, right? What would be your best hobby that you like? I know you do a lot of creative things including, you know, you want to do alternate career would be a chef, right? But uh if you had a long hectic week, how would you unwind? What is that one hobby that you would prioritize over everything else? >> I want to travel. >> Mhm. >> I think I've seen a few countries, but I

think even in those countries, I really want to see it all. >> Literally, I feel that. And it's not just countries. I just feel I want to explore and explore and explore right >> whether it is India or outside of India. I could literally sort of if someone sort of to say can you sort of save money for something I'll say yes I want to travel >> because what travel does to you when it gives you to meet people culture so many things no book in the world and nothing else will give you that sense of understanding what life is all about.

>> Fantastic. Now thank you so much uh sir for giving such amazing perspectives sharing such amazing uh pearls of wisdom and gan you know this is really really really very very interesting for me as well and I'm sure for the people who are listening into us they found it very very useful thank you so much I wish I had a hamper that I wanted to give it to you today but I'm going to forer one to you very soon there's one coming in from Copic design which is one of our design partners you know gifting partners >> nice >> and uh they do personalized stationary

so there's going to be one shipped to your home or to your office location very soon. But thank you so much for taking your time. >> Absolutely. Delighted to sort of be here as well. I couldn't thank you enough to even listening to me and perhaps I'm happy to take something back from our conversation as well. Thank you. >> My pleasure. Thank you so much once again. Feel free to share your perspectives through comments. Subscribe to the channel and do send us some suggestions as well. Thank you.