Ep3: He Built BigFM & Zee5. Now Healing India! ft. Tarun Katial

When you see the amount of vanity on social media, it's making you feel not good enough. The number of suicides have gone up tremendous. >> The last few years, he's been building something very holistic in the emotional wellness space. May I please welcome Tarun. He's a media veteran. He scaled so many amazing companies in the space of radio, in the space of OTT. I think there are about 13% adults in India. They just know they're stressed probably and sometimes they don't even know how to express that out. Your imagination tends to create a reality that you

shouldn't be in. Depression is a widely used though. It may be not right or wrong but the fact is that you're not depressed. Your self-esteem is low. Unfortunately, none of us are really going into why this is happening. >> How did that shape up your rest of your journey even while building Cotto? >> You can recommend somebody from your own platform, right? The proof of the pudding is always in the eating. Right. >> I want to get into the big FM journey as well. >> Adi Bman and Kishor Kumar were icons of a lifetime. And we got Anuk Kapoor to

actually build out a show that became biggest show that radio had ever seen. We did Yadok idiot box with Nilles Mishna which became the today's form of storytelling podcast but this was many years ago. >> Z5 as well that's been a fantastic journey. >> I was in my mid-40s and I said I think it's time to go back to school because the only way to make that platform successful was to be able to understand what we needed to do on the UX side. >> You've been at the helm of everything that it is today. Do you think short

form content will be able to disrupt the space? This show is brought to you by CRUDs, your partner in digital transformation. From cloud innovation to intelligent automation, we redefine enterprise growth, empowering organizations to shape the future with technology that thinks ahead. Hello everyone, welcome to the season two of the innovators and disruptors podcast. I'm A Tundan and I'm in Mumbai today to have a fantastic conversation today. Uh three important aspects that I wanted to touch upon in today's

conversation which is which is I think going to be very intriguing for me and I'm sure it's going to impart a lot of learning for all of you who are listening to it and watching us as well. One, what is emotional wellness? Why is it important today not just for India but from a global standpoint as well? two, how do you scale companies in the media space specifically radio and uh also OTT right scaling up is very very critical it's a very difficult function to crack we're going to tap into that as well and third how and what edge does India provide today in different

business landscape that is super critical as we think about scaling globally so for these three important conversations and important aspects that I want all of you to understand with me I have a very very interesting person who's who's joined us for this conversation He's a media veteran. He's built so many different empires so to say, scaled so many amazing companies in the space of radio, in the space of OTT. He has brought in iconic shows to the to the you know living rooms of uh our homes for years now and now for the last few years he's been building something

very holistic in the emotional wellness space. May I please welcome Tarun to you know join the show and thank you so much for taking our time Taran. Thank you so much, Ae. Uh, and you know, I'm glad to be here and to be able to, you know, do my bit. >> No, I'm I'm super glad because I think I have so many questions. We have very limited time, but I'm going to tap into some of those at least to get those answers. Uh, I know you have so much of depth that you can add to this conversation. Uh, but I don't want to go into a lot of your early life

immediately. What I want to do is to talk to you straight and, you know, address the elephant in the room. A lot of people today talk about mental wellness. if you were to define mental wellness and why is it important could you share a little bit for shed a little bit of light on that >> so I think uh you know most of us find it very hard to stay in the present right um we're carrying a lot of baggage from the past >> uh that's roing us on a daily basis we also have a lot of expectations for the future which we don't know how to

address u and that gives us a lot of anxiety on an ongoing basis whether I'll achieve not achieve whether I will have a great relationship or not, whether the other person will do what I expect them to do or not. Um, and you know, all of that pull and push between the past and the present and the future kind of keeps us embroiled in in a in a mental state that's not really the ideal, right? >> And the core of all of these issues comes from relationships, right? uh while people will say that they've had career issues in the past or they've had financials issues in the past or they

will have you know a lot of other kind of issues right but what we've realized is that the core at the core of what they do it is distraught relationships right and and your emotional well-being whether you know you're being able to stay in the present and stay happy with the things that you have uh you know right in front of you It's all strung around whether you have a happy relationship or not, right? Happy relationship with yourself and happy relationship with people around you, right? And and it starts with yourself, right? Are we happy with ourselves?

>> Every morning when you look in the mirror, do you feel happy with yourself? >> Not always, >> right? And that is is the the answer to what's your emotional well-being quotient, right? Uh >> makes sense. And it's impossible to be happy every day. But uh as long as you can be economous and understand that this two shall pass, right? And that this is another emotion that will come and go, you're good. But at most times you get caught up in that emotion of the moment, right? And then you think the whole life is that emotion, right? And

if somebody snubbed you, whether it's, you know, somebody at home or somebody at work, and you're carrying that baggage from yesterday into today into tomorrow, and you're not being able to get rid of that emotion, right? That person who snubbed you is possibly not even thinking about you, >> right? But you're carrying that baggage uh because you think that you know your self-esteem is hurt and that you know you didn't expect that of that person or you start to question whether you know your self-worth is is is all there or not all of that um

hurts your emotional wellness right and so >> it's kind of a place where whenever I look in the mirror can I be quantimous >> can I believe that what's unraveling is best for me. Right? And a lot will unravel a bit, right? A lot that you don't know will unravel in your life. But are you able to deal with it? >> Makes sense. >> As it unravels, right? Are you able to stay calm when all of this unravels? Hard, easier said than done. And that's where, you know, this whole space of emotional wellness becomes really

important in the society we live in. >> Thank you so much. Dan I I noticed a couple of things right when you're speaking about this one was a rep reptilian mindset right reptilian brain as we say that you know we are more reactive to a lot of situations as against sitting back deal with that emotion understand how to comprehend that emotions or set of emotions that we feeling and then enact on it right second thing that I noticed was we spoke about mental wellness but you changed it to emotional wellness and then you explained what emotional wellness is are

these interchangeable terms or is mental wellness is a subset of emotional wellness. >> Mental wellness is a subset of emotional wellness, right? Um I think emotions are are the key, right? We live emotions, right? >> Right. >> And our mental health really defines our emotions at some level, but sometimes it impacts our emotions, sometimes it impacts them at the surface, sometime it impacts them deeply. And there are many other components to emotional wellness also. There are our emotional

well-being, right? That's really connected to our mental health, right? Because what you'll realize over a period of time is that people who've built a spiritual practice for themsel or have spiritual support for themselves at some level, right? Are able to deal with mental health very differently than people who don't, right? Uh people who understand the way the universe works and are able to deal with the the way the world is, right? and being able to see it in an objective manner, they're able to deal with their mental health very differently from people who don't.

Right? >> And a lot of us when we are young and early, right, uh we don't really give our spiritual depth too much importance, >> right? We don't realize that being mindful uh having a certain amount of anchor, a certain amount of faith and belief is going to help us get through many ups and downs in our emotional health, in our career, in our relationships over a period of time. Uh our ability to be able to see things as they are, not as we would like them to be. our ability to be able to see things as not permanent

but as impermanent and as things that will pass by and so we don't need to really hold on to them and things do change and they do unravel all of that comes from a strong sense of you know spiritual well-being right spiritual anchor ability to be able to have faith right and all religion all faith all spirituality all mindfulness at some level will will make you understand that life is impermanent, right? What is today is not going to be tomorrow. But in that moment of stress, in that moment of loss, in that moment of expectations not being met, are you able to remind

yourself of that? Makes a lot of sense. I mean it's so beautiful and profound at the same time because what you've just said is that we would continue to feel those emotions but how we react to that how we comprehend those emotions what is our state of being at that point in time is is will allow us to build our karma or actions on top of it right which is so beautiful and thank you so much for sharing that uh I I think current in the current day and age uh you know the stress levels are off I mean it's it's very high right more often than not and I look at I looked at some data points

as well some statistics as well I realized that about 13% of adults in India are facing extremely high level of stress most of them are untreated they don't even know that they're going through what they're going through they don't understand what what exactly is happening to them right in their surroundings right they just know they're stressed probably and sometimes they don't even know how to express that out but the same thing happens with let's say Gen Z's today the same thing is happening with people uh you know who are above the age group of 45 and

different points in time you have different kind of stresses but the stress levels are off the roof at this point in time is what I understand in the country in this day and age how important specifically for the younger generations is it to embrace a spiritual side to themselves a emotional well-being aspect how what what kind of changes are you noticing on that >> so one of the I think you're just right one of the things that we're seeing in data is The number of suicides have gone up tremendously right in great and good colleges. People who've done neat and J

landed up themselves in you know the top engineering or medical colleges and then unfortunately they decide to take their life right. >> Yeah. >> And while we say okay you know they were depressed or there was a mental health issue or they were so on and so forth. I think unfortunately none of us are really going into why this is happening right and this isn't about okay providing them help at the right time which is very very critical but I think it's slightly deeper deeper than that our society has become extremely vain

right you're always comparing your life with somebody else's on an ongoing basis because you're constantly spending time on social media and looking around and saying, "Hey, I don't have an as good life as somebody else, right? Somebody has a better girlfriend. Somebody has a better wife. Somebody has a happier life. Somebody's traveling more. Somebody's eating out more. Somebody's wearing better clothes than me. Somebody's more successful." And that constant benchmarking, >> Yeah.

>> rights that huge amount of pressure at every stage of your life. Right. from a young Gen Z who's not seeing himself as successful in a relationship as as somebody else or is not on the path of doing a great startup as somebody else or as a 45 plus, you know, person who's possibly not living in as lavish an apartment or a lifestyle or whose family life is not as as happy or successful as somebody else. Scratch the surface. Possibly everybody's going through the same thing, right? But when you see the amount of vanity on social media, what is it doing to you?

>> It's making you feel not good enough. And it's putting that constant pressure, that stress level onto you to be able to get to that better life, >> right? >> That better life is an illusion. That better life when you look at that other person's life and you really go deep is possibly worse than your own. Right? And there are aspects of everybody's life which are good or bad. But unfortunately, you're only seeing that one version of the life that they are projecting on an ongoing basis. That environment makes it extremely

important for us to be able to be happy within rather than finding or seeking happiness outside. >> Right? which is where a lot of the emotional wellness modalities that are really vic you know in our our legacy and our history and our culture come to four right I got really lucky that somebody introduced me to vipasha >> uh in the early 2000s when I was at my peak of success right and if they hadn't done that I would possibly be not here today right and that >> entire practice allows you that

opportunity to be able to understand that your life is here. It's within you, not outside, right? And and you can solve your own problems. You can find your own opportunities through the calm and the equinimity that you build within yourself, right? and and there are millions of you know kind of practices that the Vedas, Buddha uh you know and all of that the entire yoga facility have created in this country and and are we being able to take that out to all parts of our society and being able to help them uh and be able to realize that they can find their own solution right

chakra meditation for example we were talking about it right >> you block your own chakras over a period of time Hm. And you don't realize, you know, what you're bottling up inside. And in your ability to be able to focus at your gut or your heart and be able to open them up in being able to embrace love in being able to find love and kindness and to be able to live life with two words that I find very important, which is ease and grace. I think society over a period of time has lost the ease and the grace to be able to live life. Makes sense. Makes a lot

of sense. >> And there are various ways of finding it. And what we really like to do on a daily basis as even as a venture is to be able to help people, support people find that ease and grace in life. >> That's fantastic. You uh very clearly called it out that Bashna was the place where you probably which got you to where you are today in terms of building out Cotto. Is that the actual focal point or are there other aspects which brought you to build out CO2 as a holistic emotional well-being environment? So you know there is no one

suit fits all right. So the way we built Cotto is that we've got a suite of services right right from uh very scientifically led mental health. We have psychologists providing mental health support, relationship coaching. We have energy healers who do Reiki. Then we have mindfulness coaches. Then we have astrologers. Then we have tarot therapy. So we have a a spectrum of uh you know uh spiritual as well as scientific emotional well-being modalities and I think you know people find their own healing path we've kind of divineed uh we've kind of devised a

lot of healing paths right looking at the data looking at what you know has worked for people looking at all the research that we do with all our experts >> but lo behold you know your mind and your life and your stage is very different than mine and you will find uh happiness in one path or another. Some people start with just a basic tarot or oracle reading which makes them realize what their energy is today. Where is their energy shift important for them? What could be their partner's energy at this point of time just so that they basically understand where they are

today and then move into more deeper practices like Reiki and aura cleaning or even mindfulness. And then there are some people who start at you know full therapy and then move into JPMR which is guided relaxation for them to be able to start seeing their life as it exists not as you know as the stressful life they perceive to be. >> So there are many paths that people take and we guide them. We have we have live experts 24 by7 talking to them. We we get them at their lowest, right? And we want to find a path for them which is not just a quick

fix but is is slightly more transformational in nature. >> That's fantastic. I think it must be very soul satisfying to be able to do that as well. >> You know, somebody asked me what is your retention level? uh you know typical VC question and my answer was that I don't want too much retention because if somebody's coming to me for 6 months that means really we're not doing a good job right so we've got to get this done in about you know anywhere between 4 to 13 weeks >> if we haven't done our job between 4 to

13 weeks then you know this isn't right right because we don't want people to have a crutch right it's like a GP >> if you could fall ill and obviously mental health is slightly more deeper than a virus But at some point in time, how often should you go to your GP in a year? >> If you're going too often, then your GP is not doing a good job. Then it's not doing they're not doing enough vitamin supplementation. They're not being able to guide you into a right routine or a right kind of diet for you to be able to stand on your own two feet. If you're

falling ill too often, that means your GP is just doing a quick fix for you. So they're doing just antibiotics and and trying to fix you which is not good for you because you know you'll at some point in time become immune to that antibiotic. >> Makes sense. Makes sense. No that's that's fantastic. Right. I mean I would I would think of it that that's very true uh in larger medical fraternity as well that you know you would not want hospital beds to be always filled in. Right. >> And with the same person right

>> like typical I mean you know what people social media say is like what's your retention right? Every VC will ask you what's your retention and I'm like this is not a business for retention. When businesses should never be measured on retention >> makes a lot of sense. I mean predictive maybe yes predictive I mean on on more holistic evol evolution of sorts right people could come back and >> yeah when they when they fall into another problem or another issue but at some point in time we want to train them to be able to solve it themselves rather

than them having to come back to us at every uh every mini juncture of their life right >> no makes a lot of sense so from a business perspective if I had to look at it uh beyond the sole satisfaction that a that a you know founder like you gets in terms of helping so many people out at scale. Uh if I had to look at it from a business lens as well, you mentioned that you know retention is obviously not the right business metric to look at, right? What are the other key metrics that as as a business in the emotional wellness pace do you think is important

and key you know to to getting you successful? I think NPS is the key for us, right? Uh how satisfied are you with what you what you get right on the platform, >> right? >> Um healing pathways are very important for us, right? So you came to us for a consult and we see our consultation business like an OPD business, right? >> But were we able to find the right healing path and the right service for you for you to be able to ultimately gain control of your own life? Right? uh if we weren't able to and you went away

just after a consultation, it could be that you got what you wanted to at that short term from that consultation. But if you didn't and if you're still seeking and not thriving, that means we're not doing our job well. >> So, as much as possible, we look for people to be able to have a, you know, an effective at least first consult, which is at least 30 to 60 minutes. do a a certain kind of deep dive into your mental well-being, emotional well-being. Where are you getting stuck? What's your issue? Uh do you have complexes? Are you into an

imposter syndrome? Where are you where are you as a person? Right? As to be able to evaluate you deeply with you and to be able to build a program for you and then how many people walk that program and are able to go through that program. Right? So it's important for us to be able to see how many people can we really get into a thriving state of mind right into a transformational place rather than just you know diagnostic uh space. So that's really the business metric. Obviously we look at LTV in in this manner but we also look at CAC versus LTV. Um if you're able to get the

right kind of people coming to us who are looking for the right kind of solutions or are we just looking for people who are who are in a in a quick fix solution space. So I think our quality of acquisition really matters. Um the other thing that we we really look for is quality of suppliers right quality of experts. So a big business metric is that you know are we able to find the right kind of experts with the right kind of depth right uh we are very very careful that you know in a lot of these spaces you can get a lot of hobbyists

>> right >> right people who do astrology for a hobby or raiki for a hobby we are not looking for lobby hobbyists we're looking for professionals who are thoroughbred who've done this for years and who can really help uh our people which is why we haven't really gone into a marketplace model. >> Ours is a curated model, right? What happens in a marketplace model is that you know anybody comes in with very little uh filter they can get listed onto the platform and really the platform doesn't take a guarantee uh on

how good or bad they are because they'll say listen you know this is a marketplace >> give a rating >> yeah we are just listing you eventually what the users will rate you will become your rating and then that algo will end up showing you up or not but the fact is that when you first list them, have you gone through enough filtering uh you know and what's your acceptance rate? So today our acceptance rate is not more than 30%. And we would like it to be lower, >> right? Uh because that is really truly

the metric we measure ourselves from, right? Are we making sure that we provide the right quality of supply, the right quality of experts to people when they when they're at their lowest. >> Makes sense? >> We don't want them into falling into wrong hands with people giving the wrong kind of advice because at that point in time, you're the most vulnerable. >> Makes sense. >> Anything anybody says feels like gospel to you, right? And that responsibility we take very seriously. So that's that's amazing. In fact uh for me the clear

perspective is when we talk about acquisition level or on the consumer side or demand side right you're saying that uh NPS matters the most on the supply side acquisition or the acceptance rate is minimalistic so that you know you build on a very very strong quality base of suppliers or healers of different sort who providing uh you know >> and that rule of thumb applies everywhere right >> I have the worst acceptance rate, >> right? >> And you get the best out there, right? >> Right. No, but I I'll tell you what, a

lot of metrics uh on the acquisition monetization sometimes and you did mention about monetization being LTV, LTV and CAC as well, right? And how that gives you a perspective, but a lot of times uh people look at vanity metrics around number of downloads, MAUs and DAUs. Now, these are figurative numbers. What I've realized having invested in a bunch of startups too, that gives you a little bit of a sense of what direction you are getting at, but it doesn't give you a holistic sense of it. like you mentioned very clearly right and adequately NPS is the biggest core that

should drive towards right I think a lot of people who are learning from this should be able to look at that as well >> so and especially in service based businesses even in in product based businesses right where you know people pay you good money right >> the first thing you have to ask people is right like is this good quality should people pay for this right is this worth it right >> um and will I recommend this to my friends friends and family makes sense right am I proud of recommending my product to my friends

and family >> or am I going to cringe >> makes sense >> and I mean somebody asked me this question I said you know absolutely right like one of my best friends and he's also one of my angel investors his mother's going through deep depression and he himself loves the platform and I've recommended a one of our leading holistic wellness therapists plus holistic wellness experts uh to him. Now in their lowest of people closest to you, if you can recommend somebody from your own platform means you have real

faith in the kind of service you provide, right? And that's the question people must ask. Do you eat what you cook? >> Right? The proof of the pudding is always in the eating. Right? Uh and a lot of people don't consume what they advertise or what they make. Right. >> Right. And and so that's really my yard stick. Right. Will I trust my life, my mind, my emotional wellness with people from my own platform? >> Makes a lot of sense. That's that's very good. I mean I mean that speaks volumes, right? The kind of quality that you're

building. Uh and I think couple of things that you mentioned which got me to think about on a very interesting aspect. uh you spoke about diagnosis but a lot of times what happens is people do a self diagnosis on their own of course and they come up with what they've picked up on social media and they or or on Google so to say right as for Google >> notch GPD >> notch GPD as well right uh as for a lot of indicators you know almost all of us with bare symptoms also say that you know we are having either cancer or something else right

>> uh interestingly enough uh >> a lot of people self diagnose themselves to be depressed Can you share a little bit of a perspective about what depression is and how exactly should people be counseledled to not just identify depression as something that you know you're going through a small trauma I mean it's very difficult to measure that of course and everyone has their own journey but not casually call themselves depressed and you know depression is a very yeah you're right a very widely used term right it may be not right or

wrong but the fact is that you could be going through an imposter syndrome right you're not depressed you're just your your self-esteem is low. Your belief in yourself is low. You think that >> you know I'm not good enough. This isn't me. It's something else and maybe I'm going to be exposed or you know and the success is not something I deserve. Right? >> So there are many ways of looking at where where you are right you are just anxious about a relationship you're in because you believe that the person doesn't love you as much right and that

causes anxiety and the truth may be far away from that. Right? It's your imagination that's running wild. Right? Your imagination tends to create the reality that you shouldn't be in. >> Makes sense. >> Right? When you're anxious, your imagination is creating the reality that you shouldn't be in. Right? And so, you have to be really having some sense of a control on your mind. And when you lose control in your mind is when you would call yourself anxious, depressed, so on and so. And so I think the first thing we do is we have a bit of a

questionnaire when people come onto the platform on what you seeking help for, what kind of modality would you like? And the first thing we do is we kind of ground you, right? So none of our consults start without grounding you, right? And breath is is a great way of getting into the present, right? Um and while people understand what is breath work or what is mindfulness I can tell you most people can't go into even 5 minutes of breath work right they they find it very hard to focus on their breath be with themselves because a mind is racing left right and center backward

forward >> and you know into the worst scenarios all the time right very few people are building a great future for themselves that most people are carrying baggage from the past and and are looking at the worst through mind. Once you start getting grounded, that's when we start asking you what you're feeling and then start clarifying to you what you really feel rather than what you believe what you feel. Right? And that clarity emerges over a period of time in a session. Right? That clarity actually then allows you to see whether

what you're feeling is depression, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's expectation mismanagement and that you know is actually one of the key things is not depression is expectation mismanagement. >> Makes sense. >> And what is expectation management that we all expect very differently from our life than we get right and more than life also from people around us right because we define our life to be the ones we love. Right? Whether from your wife or your girlfriend or your parents or your children, right, at different

stages of your life, your expectations from them versus what they provide to you is going to be always misaligned and that is always going to get into a bit of a dysfunctional relationship. that dysfunctional relationship can go from a little dysfunctional to very dysfunctional and that really then you know puts you into what your mental state is. >> And you will you will kind of blame your depression or your anxiety onto that individual because that individual is not fulfilling what you expect them to fulfill. But unfortunately nobody can

fulfill what you expect. Right? The problem is the the expectation you have created in your own head. >> True. Very true. No, that's fantastic. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's about the management of those expectations yourself, right? Uh and and >> and you need some support to be able to walk you through that path. >> Yeah. >> Right. You want I mean, me telling you this is not going to be easy. You've got to really go deep, right? Five levels deep to be able to make you realize that this problem is of yours, yours of the

making, right? Not >> fantastic point. uh in this whole journey uh I also wanted to understand that when we talk about the pyramid of care which starts with self-care it goes on to peer care then it goes on to therapists and you know external form factors who actually guide you and support you through understanding caring for yourself where does AI lie >> interesting question I was I was wondering when you were going to ask this >> so you know uh I'm a big proponent of AI But I think it's got its it's got its

usage and and you've got to have find some amount of limitations for it. Right? H we use a lot of AI in diagnostics where or when you give us information about yourself whether it is in uh in the form or in in your calls. We use that information to be able to guide our experts more about you. Right? But we don't use that information at least for today to be able to guide you about this. Right? We do believe that that information should be filtered through an expert uh and then be brought to you because some amount of human intelligence intervention is always

important because what you're telling us and what you're really telling us is different, right? And what you will end up telling us in a call will be different from what you will end up telling us in a form versus what you will end up telling us with non-verbal communication. >> Makes sense, >> right? And some of that can only be done through humans, right? >> Exactly. >> The level of deep listening, empathy, picking up non-verbal cues that a expert can do in a session with you is not what

AI can do today. It will do in a few years, but it can't do today. Right? Um and so while we use AI, we use AI on our expert side to be able to give them more uh learnings from data about people uh like you, right? To be able to tell them that, you know, these could be alternative healing paths that they could recommend to you. But eventually it is the expert and their experience with you that allows us to give the full suite of recommendations. makes a lot of sense. Now I I was also wondering if AI would be able to contribute on scalability,

right? So on one side, yes, uh there's going to be a lot of learning on the on the coach's side, right? On therapist side to understand through data points about the people that they're treating. Uh but does it also help in scalability? >> So you know, it helps us in many different parts, right? So we are only a 20 25 member team including tech supply uh ops as well as marketing demand of our scalability is fully dependent on AI right uh so in every part of our business we use AI to scale ourselves we have front-end developers who are only AI bots

>> who write code for us who understand the data we are we don't have a product manager we've trained a bot in product analytics and is able to do everything from PRD, BRDs to PRDS to >> everything through the line, right? Um even you know we had a large UIUX team and now we have a very small one because a lot of the UIUX get generated on AI from product analytics from our current set of UX all the refinement happens through AI. So obviously we are scaling on an ongoing basis. Our entire back end is on AI. So our usage of you know of all our uh cloud computing capabilities

is always led from AI and and so you know as we scale AI is is always recommending or deploying more uh servers or more capacity for us. So that's the that's the back end of you know how the how the app is developed. On the other side, even on the demand side, you know, all our copy, all our demand ads, all of that, we use AI very extensively also in being able to evaluate a lot of our work through our supply happens through AI, through transcripts of their calls, matching that to their NPS. So, I mean, every single aspect of our platform is very AI

first, right? The only thing we are not doing AI with is to bringing unsolicited advice into our vulnerable U users through AI. There we filtered it through our experts. >> That's fantastic. Uh but that also brings to me a very interesting question or perspective uh that I wanted from you on your trust uh network or a trust uh stack so to say right which means how do you balance uh privacy advice in a setting where you are asking sensitive questions getting sensitive answers how do you manage to create that

balance >> so I think a safe and secure space is our first principle >> right we allow users to go anonymous right up to the point of their entire consultation. Nobody never needs to give us their name or uh any more detail than they want to. Right? Every single detail in every single form is skippable. >> So you choose to tell us or not choose to tell us, right? >> When we use the data refined, it's only accessible in an anonymous way. And the only uh PI data that gets attached is to in the relationship between your expert

and your user. So it's a it's a doctor and uh >> patient >> patient confidential relationship. So if I come back to you a month later talking to you and you want to pull up my file, it's stored anonymously and you can pull up my file. You say, "Okay, this is the last conversation that you and me had and that this is where we left out and then this is where we're picking up." But everything else is only accessible at that level to those many people. The only other data that gets around is for quality purposes which you know like

as an expert you will have a team lead on top of you who will review your consults and also will give you advice on how better this healing path could be uh taken forward right but that's again anonymize it's never uh for a as an individual but it's a user X who you could help this way >> makes a lot of sense and that that keeps the sacros I mean keeps the whole platform from psychosis. >> Fantastic. Uh one last question on this whole journey, right? That I wanted to talk about was >> uh we spoke about spirituality, we spoke

about uh Vic learnings, right? There's a lot of cultural sensitivity and learnings that are embibed in what you're building out at Poto. How does this help build or leverage India's edge at a global scale? So I think India is the land of spirituality right across the world I mean Buddha was born here and that's our good fortune the entire Vic learning comes out of India >> true >> right I mean you can see the number of people across the world want to come to kumb today today >> and understand uh the constellations

right >> there was a great article in the New York Times yesterday >> where you know with this latest lunar eclipse and and for some years Now, western astrology is is outpaced. So, if you're a Capricorn, actually, you're not a Capricorn anymore. You're a Sagittarius. >> Is it? Okay. >> Yeah. And western knowledge, astrology has not kept up even with defining your horoscope well or your sun sign well. Right? Which is uh and it which is not the case with Vic astrology. Vic

astrology adjust themselves for every single lunar eclipse, solar eclipse, right? >> And so the Vic astrology is far more up to-date than even western astrology. >> Got it. >> And so obviously there is there is a huge amount of learning, right? and you know whether it's it's mindfulness or meditation or chakra healing or yoga I think India is really the land of all of that right and we tap into those pools of talent uh we actually work with a lot of people who are coaches and and teachers and who have who do train the

uh you know the TTC programs and we hire from there. So we make sure that they're prevetted folks who've gone into this guru shisha parumpara like the whole paraser clan is supposed to be great in astrology and we look for those kind of people who have actually got this from really learned teachers themselves. Those are India's edges you're saying for the global world and that's why I'm assuming that you know emotional wellness at scale >> would also mean going global and tapping into you know you know or solving for problems across the globe and actually

we've seen that happen very very quickly. We only went global about uh about 10 weeks ago and you know 10% of our revenue is already global, right? >> Oh wow. >> Uh and what we've seen is that whether it's Canada, whether it's the US, whether it's UAE, Australia, US, all of those markets are hungry for, you know, emotional wellness, right? And there aren't products that do this on a 24 by7 live basis with a suite of modalities that can define your healing paths, right? You can you can get one or two here and there by appointment,

right? But you can't get somebody who's live with you 24 by7 because you know emotional issues don't come timed, right? You don't know when you're going to really have that poor conversation and go into a spiral. Makes sense, >> right? >> Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing this. I also wanted to tap into and get an understanding about, you know, through some of your uh input that you just shared or perspectives perspectives that you've just shared. It's quite obvious uh to me at least that, you know, there's a strong leadership

acument that has been built over the last 25 years, right? I wanted to understand about some of these uh some of this part of the journey, right? That you know, you've acquired over the years. I wanted to tap into for example you know in one of the interviews I remember you have said that you know data is in my genes right what do you mean by that how how did you get into >> I think very early uh uh one of my early leaders mentors bosses told me that your numbers should talk to you >> right and and I think uh largely if you

can do left late left brain right brain together then kind of you know appreciate many more things in life right >> and So I came from a media planning background went into a creative uh job eventually from strategy into a creative job at star and then at Sony and then at big right and that combination has always helped me being able to do the two-level downward insight onto okay this is what the data is telling us but why is it telling us this right and what's that consumer insight what's that consumer behavior what's that innate uh

you know pull or push that we can really solve for the user, right? And and so my in my entire lookout is that okay, one level is the surface level data they'll tell you but let's go a few levels under to be able to understand the motivations, the behaviors, the patterns that are leading to this. Yeah. And you're not always right, but a few times that you get right, it really changes your career. >> Fantastic. In fact getting to your career and you start your career you built a career in media as well. How did you what was there a moment was it a

mentor was it a mindset or how did you get even get into media as a as as a as a journey? >> I think I got really lucky right I was in advertising I worked with the greats right I worked with push pande >> and and he was the head of at that time >> uh and I think it was just a great place to be. I got to work on great clients and then on Friday I said listen I want to be doing more than 30 seconds. I wanted to like tell stories and and I met uh Peter Mukherji and Samire who are legends in their own right and they kind of you know took me to the path at Star

um and that really changed you know it's they say right time right place it was 1999 we ended up doing KBC Kyongi many other shows >> right >> and it just changed our lives but also I think the kind of Bibles and and playbooks the first principal playbooks that we develed through consumer insights before we got into this. That really gave us the confidence to say, "Hey man, this isn't just a a trial and error, right? Kind of thing, a hit and miss kind of thing, which is what is

kind of, you know, labeled in the media business. Sometimes a movie will go hit and and yes it will but the more you can have some first principle attached to what you make, why you make, why is this different but it's still uh going to appeal to a a consciousness um and and actually be able to build a kind of a rule book around it, the the easier it is to be able to take decisions and and the better decisions that you take uh you know the better outcomes you get. No, for sure. In fact, I I want to go deeper into this, right? This is fantastic. But for people who do not

know this, you know, you are the one who brought such amazing iconic shows, right, to our living rooms. It's you mentioned KBC, this Big Boss, Katro Kari, Indian Idol and so on and so forth, right? So many of them. And uh you know, you know, people get lucky once or twice, but you know, in your case, you've had these amazing number of shows that have that have been on our TV screens for years now. uh you mentioned that you know there's a lot of uh first principles thinking where you're understanding what consumers would really prefer but when

you're bringing them in at that point of time what were the data points and how much of it was the intuition and consumer understanding that you know led you to bring those shows on >> so I think you got to be deeply immersed in what you do >> you can never take decisions on the surface right and the more deeply immersed you are with your consumer and the content you make for them or any product you make for them uh they will start to talk to you, right? Um and the more deeply you uh develop your gut, right? What is intuition? What is gut?

Really, it is the years and years of experiences, right? Uh >> right, >> that you put into yourself, right? It's it's the outliers principle of 10,000 hours, right? Most of us don't put those 10,000 hours behind anything we do and how intensely we want to put those 10,000 hours, right? uh and you have 24 hours a day. You want to you want to get to 10 to 10,000 hours. You can choose to put 1 hour every day for 10,000 days or you can choose to put 10 hours every day and get to those 10,000 hours. Right? that 10,000 hours principle to be able

to build your gut, your instinct, to be able to understand the consumer, look at, you know, a 360 degree from a both a consumer insight and a data and an outcome and an input perspective will help you get there far quickly. So my advice to everybody who's listening to this is that you know the outlier strategy is a great strategy and and if you truly put in those 10,000 hours you're going to see outcomes you know come to you without you having to forcefully think them through. >> Makes a lot of sense. People who are listening to it you can buy a book

Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. Right. So >> you should send us some royalty >> for sure. >> It's a great book. Yeah. >> Yeah. No that's fantastic. Right. So, so, so you were saying that there was almost no intuition. No intuition has no role to play in this when you >> No, no, you develop an intuition, right? So, the 10,000 hours develops your intuition. >> Makes sense. >> Your it's it fills your gut with a lot of data, a lot of consumer insights and then it comes to you.

>> Yeah. There's a snap of finger and you're like, "Yeah, this will make sense." Awesome. That's so amazing to hear that, right? Uh uh because I think there's a lot of science in intuition as well. That's what that's >> I mean, intuition is is the most important thing to have, right? your gut will tell you before your intellect does. >> H fantastic. I love the fact that you need also, you know, emphasize in the first principle thinking because a lot of time people don't emphasize enough on building their muscles on first

principle and second order. Something that I've over the years being in the innovation space tried to force myself to build that muscle and I realized that today in my daily activities that gets utilized as well, right? uh any any key learnings that you want to share from advertising and the initial media stage as well before you got into big FM what were the key learnings that you know you think uh anyone who's building out in these spaces today should should tap into >> I think what one of the other things that people do is that they don't uh

believe in what they make they think that I'm making this for the consumer but it doesn't have to be for me too right >> I think uh while it's okay to not be excited about what you make and you can be dispassionate about it but I think it doesn't really work right um and for me at the moment that I do what I do I'm I get extremely passionate and involved in that category right so when I moved from seeing advertising into Hindi television I got very involved in in daily soaps characters you know and I looked at the world of content from every single lens

right and when I gave that up and I would moved into the world of music right uh I wasn't really a great Hindi music kosia but I I got deep into understanding what was the difference between Ardi Bman and Mohammad Rafi and both are great musicians of that time but I can tell you that Mohamad Rafi's music was for that time and Ardi Burman's music is for lifelong >> wow makes sense >> and MKkesh is for that time but kishor kumar is for a lifetime >> any generation can listen to kishorum

>> right >> very true >> right and that's the difference and I met many many music composers uh singers and all that to be able to just listen to them deep listening is a great skill that you must develop if you want to grow in anything you do >> fantastic makes a lot of sense >> and today when I to the emotional wellness space. I just sit and talk to experts everyday basis and I work with their calls, work with their uh their therapy uh you know and to be able to just see what consumers are saying

>> makes a lot of sense. I mean it it you know kind of you know doubles down on your previous point as well about you know spending 10,000 hours into anything. So deep learning comes there but very importantly also mentioned about being compassionate and passionate both for what you're trying to solve for because and I completely agree with you. I know there are a lot of people who talk about this that you know how you dissociate yourself from the line of business that you're in but unless you empathize with what the consumers are

going through as a problem right and you're trying to solve for that unless you are passionate about what you're building you will never be able to make those sacrifices. you'll never be able to really get to the depth of what you're building, right? So that that's such a fantastic point. Thank you so much. Uh I want to get into the big FM journey as well. It's such a remarkable thing. You built it from scratch to 45 stations. >> 60 >> 60 stations. Wow. Sorry, my bad. I thought it's 45 60 stations, right? Uh

it's I I think everyone who's in a car today, in a cab today, uh it's a part of our journey, daily journey that we go through and I think uh you've been at the helm of everything that it is today. How did that opportunity come about? What were the biggest challenges? >> I think opportunity came because I was really successful. So it was kind of easy, you know, but uh you know we fought a lot of challenges. The biggest challenge was that you know uh some of the music labels would be were very uh uh unreasonable with us and and there came a time where he said listen you

know if they don't license us music at a cost that is viable for this industry we may not use them and they had all the latest music and in adversity opportunity we decided to make big FM a retro station a young retro station And that actually changed our fortunes completely because like I told I told you Adi Bman and Kishor Kumar are were icons of a lifetime and people obviously at some level loved them but because some of the latest music takes you over you kind of don't appreciate the depth and the width and the and the gems you have in in your music library, right? Um

and so we decided to you know kind of bring them forward and do different things around him and we got Anu Kapoor to actually build out a show that became you know the biggest show the radio had ever seen right >> we got Nilles Mishra to come and do storytelling people had never seen storytelling happening and so we did Raha you know we did Yadoki box with Nilles Mishra which became the today's form of storytelling podcast but this was many years ago and So we were kind of ahead of doing talk radio, of doing storytelling on radio, of doing a lot of

deep work on radio that had not happened, right? And that changed our fortunes. We became number one. We became profitable. The company got an exit. I got an exit and it really did a lot for everybody. Fantastic. But very interestingly, right, this was audio format, right? Uh people, you know, picked up this as a habit, right? It's a daily ritual of sorts, right? and you're listening to radio, uh you're listening to music, you're listening to talk shows, uh you're listening to even jokes and you know you know fun prank calls as well and so on and so forth. It evolved

over a period of time. What I wanted to also get a little bit into depth was that this daily cadence because in in an environment like this it's almost a daily cadence to understand product market fit. How did that shape up your rest of your journey even while building Cotto? >> So you know like we went retro right? We had to do a full product market fit again, >> right? >> Because this isn't the radio station we'd launched originally. And will it work? Will it not work for the consumer?

Will it work? Will it not work for the advertiser? And so at every single local radio station when we choose a format uh and you you know you go out to the market with the consumer, with the advertiser, it's a real product market fit test, right? And and what would work in uh say Bombay wouldn't work in Delhi, right? While we did the top the retro station in Bombay, Delhi we did a top 100 station because Delhi is a is a young vibrant city that really wants the latest all the time, right? And so we realized that maybe retro is not the best thing for them, right?

>> And every city was an entire learning curve and entire journey for us. >> Fantastic. Uh moving into Z5 as well, right? Uh that's been a fantastic journey too again, right? uh it's become an international platform with a lot of vernacular content I mean more than 100 titles maybe more a lot more in multiple languages going across the globe and being consumed across the globe what was that journey like what what were some key learnings from that as well >> I think you know Z5 was a was a really unlearning learning journey right uh before I got to Z which was through a

M&A between big and Z tried to do four kinds of OD platforms, right? All kinds of platforms, right? And then they they did Z5, which is when they brought me in. And I think, you know, when you come from a media and a content space, you think that content can can really change the game for you. But when you come to a media tech company, the big learning is that this is 50/50 now, >> right? It's as much your content is as much your UX, right? And I went back to school. I went to Kellogg to do a

post-graduation a two-year program in digital transformation. And I graduate in product strategy and AI. >> Uh I was in my mid early to mid-40s and I said, I think it's time to go back to school because the only way to make that platform successful was to be able to understand what we needed to do on the UX side. And we did a lot of work there. I think very early on we were very first in the smart TV revolution. We built out for every single smart TV. So when co happened we were available on all kind of smart TVs. Even the basic smart TV that didn't even

have like the Netflix and the Amazon, we were still available on them, >> right? >> And that gave us serious reach because I believe from the very beginning that while mobile is good for consuming content, but long- form content will be watched on TV in in in its full bloom, right? And that allowed us to do a lot more. We also were very early in being able to do login directly on smart TV through QR codes, UPI payments through u uh through QR codes, so on and so forth. I know very early on I spoke to a a friend who did a product uh marketplace

company and I said, "Yeah, I tried paying on UPI and it wasn't working." He's saying, "Oh, but you pay on UPI. You know, you're not the kind of customer." I said, "You're missing the bus. Every customer pays on UPI and you watch the more, you know, more people will pay through UPI." But I think we did all of those early experiments that really helped us scale the business. At the time that I moved on from Z5, we were already at 100 million users. Uh we also had a really good AW to SWAT model and that you know the premium journey was something to learn from.

>> So I think all in all Z5 was a great place for me to be able to work through the intricacies of building an Indian media tech, Indian uh you know consumer tech product. >> That's fantastic. In fact, if I'm not wrong, you coined the term cont culture, right? Which was a combination of content into technology across technology, right? It's fantastic. This is big big. I think I'm I'm planning to write a case study on this. I'll come back to you on this. Uh that's fantastic. I also noticed that you know because of tapping into vernacular

uh this was very very strong and solid positioning uh as against other international media firms who did not even think about tapping into something like this and that was a very very strong edge that Z5 had. >> How did this scale up or distribution wise it work out at a global scale? So really I think you know one I had the legacy of doing 60 radio stations which were all done in the language of that city >> right >> and two Z had a great legacy of doing local language television not only in

India but across the world. Zed had uh you know TV stations in Arabic, TV stations in in South Africa, in Mexico which were all done in those local languages. And I think both of those come came together for us to realize that the way to scale was to be able to take languages across anywhere in the world and to be able to serve people in that right. So either we were sublighting or dubbing content or creating original content in those languages and in India we did it in every single language and also I think you must realize that Indian diaspora is

the biggest diaspora in the world right you can take a great Mallayalam library into uh Mina or you can take an entire Tamil library into both Southeast Asia and into the US and you can take a Punjabi library into Canada and US and Australia and I think we Don't think of it like that but I think Indian languages have far more reach than we give ourselves credit for. Plus I think Indian content is very viewed in in different languages across the world. Yeah. So Russia >> great great place for Indian dubbed content right Africa great place for

Indian dub content. Any place that does not have their own local content has watches either the American content which is also dubbed into their languages or has start to experiment with Korean, Indian, Chinese content and we wanted to be in that bucket. >> Makes sense. Do you think short form content will be able to disrupt the space >> hugely? I think uh you know please put put a reel out of this but I do believe that attention spans are really low. ADHD is a reality and the the future of storytelling lies under 120 seconds.

>> Wow. Okay. Thank you so much. I mean this means there are a lot of youngsters out there who can still figure out a way to disrupt uh these kind of supply chains distribution. Thank you so much Tarun. But I'm not going to let you leave immediately. I have a bunch of rapid fire questions. No conversation is you know complete without this. So I'm going to ask you these uh >> clearly Karan Jaw has had an influence on everybody. >> Oh totally he did. I wish I also had coffee with K hamper but uh probably I'll ship it to you. Thank you. Uh the

first one you mentioned about vipna. What does vipashta mean to you if you can mention that in a line? >> So one word introspection. >> Fantastic. One media bet you a bet you wish you had made sooner. >> Going retro. >> Fantastic. Wellness myth you'd happily bust or retire? that you can quick fix an emotional wellness problem. >> Fantastic. Spiritual or self-care practice you recommend that costs actually zero rupees? >> Breath work.

Take 10 minutes every morning. >> Fantastic. Uh one Indian strength that everyone going or soling for global should take up. >> Our Vic culture there is so much in it uh that we kind of overlook. Yeah. Very cool. Uh, what's your binge when it comes to content? >> I, uh, currently I'm watching The Guilded Age. >> Um, it's it's a great story of history and how, you know, on the backdrop of modern innovation, families and society changes.

>> Very cool. Uh, what's the secret exercise that the that is the most sacrosang to you on a daily basis? Um so both mentally meditation but also physically uh for very long I did something called EMS. >> Mhm. >> Uh which is electro muscle simulation. >> Fantastic. Business metrics that you absolutely need in your life. >> Uh the number of happy customers. >> Fantastic. If you if you get a billboard outside every metro station across the country, what would those that billboard show like? If in if if you had to

mention it in five words, >> a breath can change your life. >> Thank you so much, Taran, for such candid and amazing perspectives. I think there's so much of learning. I wish I could sit with you for another couple of hours. Maybe sometime later I'll love to host you. But thank you so much for taking >> Thank you. I think great questions and I've haven't had a a podcast like this where people go so deep into uh things of emotional wellness. Thank you so much for doing this. >> My pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank

you so much for taking out. Thank you.